When is it to late to split a hive

[gwizzie]

Hi All,

I have a large colony of bees and today found some queen cups that I removed as I am new to beekeeping my question is this, when in the year is it to late to split a hive ?
and what would you recommend (if I have to split) what way to split them ?

regards
Graham

[fatshark]

Definitely not too late. I'd suggest a vertical split as described by Wally Shaw (http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Simple-methods-of-making-Increase-Final-reduced1.pdf). Requires minimal additional equipment and offers an easy option to reunite should things go pear-shaped.

Remember, my comments aren't based on experience in Ross-Shire. Also remember that queen cups (presumably not charged) may well not lead to queen cells.

[drumgerry]

Are you talking about an artificial swarm of some kind Graham? Were the queen cups charged - ie did they have a larva inside in a bed of royal jelly? I would only be carrying out an artificial swarm at that stage not just when eggs are present in the cups. Also remember that if you do split you're not committed to overwintering the separate units if one or other of them doesn't build up sufficient strength - they can be recombined before wintering preparations begin to give you a unit of sufficient strength to overwinter.

As to what I'd recommend in the way of splitting.....like many questions in beekeeping this is a "how long is a piece of string" one! For myself if I was of a mind to make increase I might follow Mike Palmer's method of making up nucs for overwintering. This involves raising queens and dividing all of the resources of one of your less productive colonies into a number of units each with a queen. So a single brood box colony might get split 4 ways at this time of year and with each in a polynuc they'd have the rest of the summer to build up. In a reasonable winter I'd be hopeful of getting most of those units through to next spring.

If all you want to do is split it into two then a standard artificial swarm might be the best way for you to go - you'd satisfy their swarming instinct and make a new colony for yourself. I'm assuming you know how to carry out an artificial swarm here. And like I said if you feel that one of the splits is lagging behind or the new queen isn't performing for whatever reason then you can re-unite before winter.

As to how late you can do it you have to bear in mind that if you're giving one side of the split a queen cell rather than a mated queen then there's the time for the queen cell to hatch and possibly up to three or four weeks before she comes into lay before that colony can start to be productive in bee numbers again. So if we're saying you give the split a queen cell today you could be into August before the queen is in lay. Thereafter there are a limited number of brood cycles for her to build up overwintering bees.

So I'd recommend you crack on if you're going to do it!

[gwizzie]

Definitely not too late. I'd suggest a vertical split as described by Wally Shaw (http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Simple-methods-of-making-Increase-Final-reduced1.pdf). Requires minimal additional equipment and offers an easy option to reunite should things go pear-shaped.

Remember, my comments aren't based on experience in Ross-Shire. Also remember that queen cups (presumably not charged) may well not lead to queen cells.

Hi Thanks for the reply, the queen cells were both charged with lava, sorry I should have said. Thanks for the link ;-) interesting reading.

[gwizzie]

Are you talking about an artificial swarm of some kind Graham? Were the queen cups charged - ie did they have a larva inside in a bed of royal jelly? I would only be carrying out an artificial swarm at that stage not just when eggs are present in the cups. Also remember that if you do split you're not committed to overwintering the separate units if one or other of them doesn't build up sufficient strength - they can be recombined before wintering preparations begin to give you a unit of sufficient strength to overwinter.

As to what I'd recommend in the way of splitting.....like many questions in beekeeping this is a "how long is a piece of string" one! For myself if I was of a mind to make increase I might follow Mike Palmer's method of making up nucs for overwintering. This involves raising queens and dividing all of the resources of one of your less productive colonies into a number of units each with a queen. So a single brood box colony might get split 4 ways at this time of year and with each in a polynuc they'd have the rest of the summer to build up. In a reasonable winter I'd be hopeful of getting most of those units through to next spring.

If all you want to do is split it into two then a standard artificial swarm might be the best way for you to go - you'd satisfy their swarming instinct and make a new colony for yourself. I'm assuming you know how to carry out an artificial swarm here. And like I said if you feel that one of the splits is lagging behind or the new queen isn't performing for whatever reason then you can re-unite before winter.

As to how late you can do it you have to bear in mind that if you're giving one side of the split a queen cell rather than a mated queen then there's the time for the queen cell to hatch and possibly up to three or four weeks before she comes into lay before that colony can start to be productive in bee numbers again. So if we're saying you give the split a queen cell today you could be into August before the queen is in lay. Thereafter there are a limited number of brood cycles for her to build up overwintering bees.

So I'd recommend you crack on if you're going to do it!

Hi Drumgerry, yes I was referring to a artificial swarm if I need to do one. Not sure if this will help but took video of the size of the hive today please have a look and let me know what you think? you can see the queen cups (charged) at about 9m 13sec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgOyNJgAd7Q

[drumgerry]

Looks like you need an artificial swarm of some kind Graham. Fatshark's method(s) of splitting the hive are good ones as is the standard method if you have the kit. I'd be doing it today as well.

I watched your video at the point where you find the queen cells. I was wondering if you had just broken the sidewalls of the cells rather than destroying the contents. If just the sidewalls then the bees can repair those and the larva can continue its development uninterrupted.

[gwizzie]

Looks like you need an artificial swarm of some kind Graham. Fatshark's method(s) of splitting the hive are good ones as is the standard method if you have the kit. I'd be doing it today as well.

I watched your video at the point where you find the queen cells. I was wondering if you had just broken the sidewalls of the cells rather than destroying the contents. If just the sidewalls then the bees can repair those and the larva can continue its development uninterrupted.

Hi Drumgerry, yes I am thinking along the same lines due to the size that this hive has got over the last week. BUT unfortunately it won't be done today as the best of Scottish weather has descended on me again.

I have the equipment So a split lumes:) now you have me thinking ??? I think I just broke the side wall on them... Supposed to be better weather tomorrow so will do a quick check and then I will do a split and let you know how I get on..

Thanks for the replys and the advice ;)

[drumgerry]

Aye you're a bit further west than me Graham! I managed to get some of mine inspected today between showers. Let us know how you get on

Cheers, Gerry

[gwizzie]

Hi Gerry, yes will do. I have 6 weeks holidays at the moment so should some bits and bobs done!!! its absolutely chucking it down here just now :mad: never mind

cheers
Graham

[gwizzie]

Well guys, checked the hive today and NO more queen cells YES...... they seem to have settled down now and the queen is laying well and in a good pattern. Supper has been filled with frames so heres hoping for some honey this year from this one :D