What next - Tilia lime ?

[greengumbo]

I've got the "moving my hives around" bug this year. They are now on OSR that only started flowering last week. At least I think it is OSR. Looked a bit thinner and weedier than the ususal stuff is late OSR different like this ?

So basically fill in the gap !

Early OSR, Late OSR, ? , Heather

I have found records of lime trees in my locale but will have to visit to find out if I have missed flowering. Question is how many hives per tree is normal ? They dont tend to grow or be planted in stands up here....its usually one or two in country house grounds. If I plonked a hive below a single flowering lime then all things being well could I expect a yield ?

[gavin]

That weedy OSR is spring (ie spring sown) OSR. Not so much of it around these days but it gives the bees a useful boost, even a honey crop sometimes. It is usually in flower for just 2 weeks (per field) in the second half of June or July. It also tends to mean you get faster crystalising heather honey :-)

Not so much how many hives per lime tree (you optimist!) but more how many trees per hive. A line of lime trees (they're usually in lines) should support a few hives. I have four apiaries deliberately near lime but Murray told me I should head for the bell heather instead. It is a very fickle honey producer but delicious, right up there with heather as one of the best. Here the first buds are about to pop. We've had sunny weather and a decent downpour. Now all we need is strong hives plus sticky humid weather ....

[gavin]

Don't forget clover. It is the biggie in late June and July. There has been a flow at a few of my apiaries recently and I reckon it is clover. Old pasture is best, sown fields and landscaped areas can yield too. However it needs warm weather and so the clover tap may be about to be turned off for a while.

[chris]

The problem with lime is that it has a fairly short flowering time, and if the climatic conditions are not right all the time, then you don't get much. It needs its roots near water, and hot, sunny weather. I've seen huuge lime trees in the middle of nowhere with a hive underneath. The guy who used to own where I am now grafted a second lime species onto the one planted and it has almost doubled the flowering time.:D
If you are going to have some hot weather without heavy rainfall, then I'd put a hive. Even just a few frames are well worth it.

[greengumbo]

Don't forget clover. It is the biggie in late June and July. There has been a flow at a few of my apiaries recently and I reckon it is clover. Old pasture is best, sown fields and landscaped areas can yield too. However it needs warm weather and so the clover tap may be about to be turned off for a while.

Doh !

Yes of course. Clover. I'm an idiot.

Well there is plenty of that about at the moment in old pastures near some hives.

I'll go investigate the lime tree record and see if it is one or more trees :)

Not much bell heather near me but plenty patches of ling.

[lindsay s]

I've got the "moving my hives around" bug this year.
The first time I moved hives about 20 miles on a warm summer’s night it was a near disaster. I had been used to moving hives short distances without any ventilation and up until then it had always been ok. On the night in question me and my partner set out to move two strong colonies out to her family’s farm. Before we set off I thought a bit of mesh over the feed holes in the crown board would offer sufficient ventilation. The rest of each hive was covered in that much parcel tape that they looked like Egyptian mummies. After half an hour’s drive we arrived with the hives and placed them on their new site before releasing the bees. Once the tape was removed from their entrance’s hundreds and hundreds of dead and dying bees were pushed out by the colonies. Lack of ventilation lead to colony stress and overheating, luckily the queens survived and we even got a good crop of honey that summer. Lessons have been learned and hives are now moved as per photos.

Don't forget clover. It is the biggie in late June and July. There has been a flow at a few of my apiaries recently and I reckon it is clover. Old pasture is best, sown fields and landscaped areas can yield too.
Your right about the clover Gavin, as I’ve said before it’s our main crop up here. The photos were taken on Thursday night just before I moved two hives 10 miles to a good area for the clover about three weeks later than normal. It’s a gamble that might just save the season.

[greengumbo]

Visited my hives on late OSR and its only just finishing :)

Managed to speak to my local farmer and he has a pasture full of clover so moving them down there tonight. Come on sunshine !

Of note the clover fields are surrounded by field of broadbeans or field beans. They are still in flower - do they yield honey ? You are the field bean expert gav :)

[fatshark]

I've had honey from field beans but others say they don't always yield. Actually I think my first ever honey was from field beans … the hives were slap bang next to a big field of the stuff and the rape had finished, so at least that's what I've always assumed it was.

Is OSR finishing this late usual up where you are. I've just checked my records and it was almost all gone here by the 6th of June (I'm not actually that sad that I keep records of when stuff goes over*, but I do have a dated photo of something else with a couple of yellow flowers in a sea of OSR seed pods). I guess yours is spring sown and mine autumn sown (the norm around here).

* with apologies to those who do ;)

[greengumbo]

I've had honey from field beans but others say they don't always yield. Actually I think my first ever honey was from field beans … the hives were slap bang next to a big field of the stuff and the rape had finished, so at least that's what I've always assumed it was.

Is OSR finishing this late usual up where you are. I've just checked my records and it was almost all gone here by the 6th of June (I'm not actually that sad that I keep records of when stuff goes over*, but I do have a dated photo of something else with a couple of yellow flowers in a sea of OSR seed pods). I guess yours is spring sown and mine autumn sown (the norm around here).

* with apologies to those who do ;)

I would say this is the only ever field I have found of late spring sown OSR. The winter sown stuff finished about 2/3 weeks back at the latest :)

95% of OSR is winter sown up here I think.

Just spotted blight on my potatoes.....bah !!

[fatshark]

Ignore the spuds … lousy source of nectar ;)

[The Drone Ranger]

I would say this is the only ever field I have found of late spring sown OSR. The winter sown stuff finished about 2/3 weeks back at the latest :)

95% of OSR is winter sown up here I think.

Just spotted blight on my potatoes.....bah !!

I haven't been checking the potatoes thanks for the heads up GG
I registered with blight watch and they give notice of local outbreaks and Smith periods
It was bad last year -- cut off all haulms -covered rows with black plastic which saved them

[greengumbo]

I haven't been checking the potatoes thanks for the heads up GG
I registered with blight watch and they give notice of local outbreaks and Smith periods
It was bad last year -- cut off all haulms -covered rows with black plastic which saved them

I've never seen it before. Pentland Javelins and Rooster were effected. Have dug them all up but left the other varieties in case it hasn't spread yet.

Worth spraying anything on them ?

Sorry this is a bit off topic !

[gavin]

Spuds, what are they?! ;)

More than likely the other spuds have the right genes to deal with the late blight rampaging in your garden.

Spring oilseed rape used to be a common crop around here and further north. It has been fading away but this year there is one field in full flower straight across the water in Fife (one which some of my bees can reach) and there are also a couple of fields just SW of Perth.

Lime is well out now here but some at a slightly higher altitude have another couple of weeks before they are ready. But we're stuck in a cool run of weather that means the lime and the clover are not yielding and the queens not getting mated :(.

[chris]

Worth spraying anything on them ?


Dithane, if it's still allowed.
You could parachute Colorado beetle onto them-they get the leaves off before the blight sets in.:(

Maybe something here http://www.potatoreview.com/potato-review-fungicides/

but as Gavin points out, it's mainly down to resistant varieties.

[The Drone Ranger]

I've never seen it before. Pentland Javelins and Rooster were effected. Have dug them all up but left the other varieties in case it hasn't spread yet.

Worth spraying anything on them ?

Sorry this is a bit off topic !
I'll PM you about spuds GG as its not bees

[Mellifera Crofter]

... But we're stuck in a cool run of weather that means the lime and the clover are not yielding and the queens not getting mated :(.

Our very good local newsletter drew my attention to clover, and quoted from Kirk and Howes' book, Plants for Bees (p.271). They say, 'The temperature range over which white clover will secrete nectar is wide compared with that of many plants, and probably extends lower than the temperature required for honeybees to fly.' For me, the main problem seems to be that they don't get much opportunity to fly this year.
Kitta

[Calluna4u]

It has been fading away but this year there is one field in full flower straight across the water in Fife (one which some of my bees can reach) and there are also a couple of fields just SW of Perth.

The stuff SW of Perth, near the Forteviot road end, is actually mustard being grown as a cover crop. Have known it to yield profusely in perfect conditions, BUT so rarely as not to be worth bothering with.

Lime crops in Taysi8de can happen, but are a rarity. More reliable the further south in the country you go, but have had a significant yield north of the Tay maybe twice in 35 years.

Bell heathher coming out now, and that gets you a decent crop far more often, at least one year in 3 and only blanks about one year in four. Angus/Perthshire less reliable than Aberdeenshire. The rain shadow and Fohn effect help the area east of the Cairngorms.

Annual migration now in full swing. About 500 on the bell already.

[gavin]

... is actually mustard being grown as a cover crop.

Oh well, that's what happens when you try to identify a crop from 2 km away!




Bell heather coming out now, and that gets you a decent crop far more often, at least one year in 3 and only blanks about one year in four.

I'm listening! Intending to spread my risk and shift some to bell sites (would have done last week but a lurgy intervened). One additional site I'm on this year has had a tradition of lime honey so I'm told. We'll see.

[greengumbo]

I read the same newsletter it seems :)

I was surprised at white clover bit. I always thought it had to be >19'C to yield which means up here it never would !

[Mellifera Crofter]

Yes, so was I, GG.

I don't know what the temperature was this morning, but it was grey and drizzling and dricht yet the bees were all over the clover.

What I found interesting was that this little patch of clover is right next to two cotoneaster bushes that were zooming with bees, but only wasps and bumble bees. The honey bees' attention was only on the clover.
Kitta

[alancooper]

The temperature for clover: I am uncertain of the source of the "temperature" information for clover to give nectar (if anyone has it please let me know) - but be aware that weather forecast temperature is just a general guide. The temperature in the sun at ground level can be considerably higher then forecast air temperature. I have seen my bees on clover with my local forecast at 15 degrees C.

[greengumbo]

The temperature for clover: I am uncertain of the source of the "temperature" information for clover to give nectar (if anyone has it please let me know) - but be aware that weather forecast temperature is just a general guide. The temperature in the sun at ground level can be considerably higher then forecast air temperature. I have seen my bees on clover with my local forecast at 15 degrees C.

Found this for those that can access:

Influence of Temperature and Floret Age on Nectar Secretion in Trifolium repens L.
H. B. Jakobsen and K. Kritjánsson
+ Author Affiliations

Department of Plant Biology, Plant Physiology and Anatomy Laboratory, and Department of Agricultural Science, Crop Science, The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Thorvaldsensvej 40, 1871 Frederiksberg C, Denmark
Abstract

The influence of temperature on nectar secretion in non-pollinated florets of Trifolium repens was investigated in growth chambers at 10, 14, 18 and 22°C. The effect of temperature on the rate of nectar secretion was significant in all clones. The optimum temperature for secretion in three clones varied from 10°C for a clone of Icelandic origin, to 18°C in a clone selected from a Danish variety. Similarly, the average nectar yield varied significantly among clones of different geographical origin. One clone secreted two to four times more than others at 10°C. The optimum day temperature for nectar secretion was higher when the plants were exposed to low night temperature, presumably a result of decreased night respiration. Nectar accumulated at the floret base until senescence. Evidence for reabsorption of nectar was obtained in four clones. Sucrose, fructose and glucose were identified as the major sugars in the nectar. High night temperatures led to decreased sucrose percentage in favour of glucose and fructose. The frequency of new florets opening per day was not influenced by temperatures between 10 and 22°C in one clone, whereas low temperatures significantly decreased the number of new florets in another. Few or no modified stomata were observed in the epidermis of the nectary. The high variation with respect to nectar secretion at low temperatures, along with the high heritability of this quality, suggests that breeding for high nectar production at low temperature is plausible. The significance of nectar yield in pollination biology is discussed.Copyright 1994, 1999 Academic Press


http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/74/4/327.full.pdf+html

[Emma]

My bees were on flow for weeks, & seemed latterly to be on clover (lots of brown pollen), until the weather suddenly turned cooler last week.
Since then they've been lively enough, when they can get out, & I saw a little clover-brown-looking pollen coming in today, but stores aren't accumulating, comb isn't being built, and there's an air of robbing around. So I think my local clover needs the hotter weather (by Fife standards) to yield nectar that honeybees can reach.
I'm wistfully watching the local lime flowers about to burst... I think some of them, too high for me to see, already have, there was some familiar-seeming yellow-green pollen coming in earlier this week, during a warm spell. But the forecast is for high winds & heavy rain :-(
Breeding plants for higher nectar yields in cooler temperatures: someone please convince the plant breeding industry that that's the way to go! :-)

[gavin]

Fascinating research, GG. Mine have been like Emma's, a flow for a while but much quieter recently. Except for really strong colonies at lime sites :-) I wonder if the traditional better clover honey crops in the upland pastures is due to native types of clover secreting better than the clover in the lowland which is largely sown? I suppose it could equally be higher temperatures away from the cool east coast.

Emma, lime has been out for over a week in the central Carse of Gowrie and Invergowrie. Lime nearer you over the hill towards Newburgh is a week or so away. Lime in central Dundee is out but there is much yet to come. A mix of microclimate and different types of lime I guess.

[HJBee]

Ours are budded but not broke yet that I can see, but I did see some familiar looking pollen going in last night so there must be few out. Next super is on ready.

[lindsay s]

If the weather conditions are right Orkneys bees will work the wild white clover in the low teens and the bumbles will work the red in even cooler temperatures. There is now a lot more field sown clover because the farmers up here are being encouraged to grow it for a nitrogen fix. After the fields have been cut for silage the white clover can flower really well for a second time, but I’ve been told by those in the know? that the bees prefer the wild verities. The weather up here is still pretty naff, it’s one or two good days followed by four or five bad. The farmers can’t get their fields cut and even the wild clover is late and poor. Only two out of my eight colonies have any stores in their supers and even my clover gamble might not pay off (see my earlier post in this thread). By the way there seems to be a lot less bumbles about this year.:(

[HJBee]

Not the case for me, I can't walk around the garden with my mouth open with fear of swallowing one! However, sure signs that a local beekeeper gave up the apiary nearest to me, very few honeybees.

[busybeephilip]

Bees dont seem to be gathering very much now even though there is still some blackberry and ragwort about. For me the seasons over, bees this last evening were tucked up in their hives not flying even though it was warmish, a sure sign that there is little nectar out there and all that was about was a few wasps trying to rob my mini nucs . None trying to swarm now!

Honey yield down on last year still a lot of supers half filled yet plenty of bees. supers of uncapped honey are starting to be eaten and the queens have reduced laying. Bees are staring to laydown stores under the excluder. It will pick up again here at the end of september when Ivy will produce a great flow sometimes forcing late swarming but its always difficult to predict the weather !

[Jon]

There is loads of forage at the moment. The problem is the cool showery weather.
The Himalayan Balsam is in full flower, Rosebay Willowherb, Bramble, fuscia, privet, clover and all the garden ornamentals.

[busybeephilip]

Blackberry is > 3/4 way done and clover almost gone and too cold for clover, even if weather was good its would be just enough to feed the brood. I'm sure your arnia scale hive will show that there is no more nectar about. From experience, I'd be very surprised if you get a flow of nectar in august, even in good sunny weather, unless you were in the mournes after the bell heather and even then you'd need some luck (Is anyone going to the club heather site it will start flowering in the next few weeks ?)

In any case, I always leave what little the bees gather from now for to supplement their winter stores, best not to be greedy. Get the supers off and start varroa treatments ASAP this year as levels seem to be high than last year (for me anyway)

[The Drone Ranger]

sorry busybee you got me again whats an "arnia scale hive"?

[busybeephilip]

sorry busybee you got me again whats an "arnia scale hive"?

The Arnia scale hive is a hive that Belfast BKA has at the minnowburn queen rearing site which Jon manages. It is a hive on a set of scales that monitors the weight in real time and allows the person in charge (Jon) to observe the weight gain or loss through a web site via PC or wifi phone. see http://www.arnia.co.uk for details. The profile graph for weight should show when the flow starts and finishes and how the bees eat the stores at the end of the flow. Jon has the graph profiles for Belfast

I'd love to have a complete system for my own hives but it costs a fortune

[gavin]

The Arnia scale hive is a hive that Belfast BKA has at the minnowburn queen rearing site which Jon manages. It is a hive on a set of scales that monitors the weight in real time and allows the person in charge (Jon) to observe the weight gain or loss through a web site via PC or wifi phone. see http://www.arnia.co.uk for details. The profile graph for weight should show when the flow starts and finishes and how the bees eat the stores at the end of the flow. Jon has the graph profiles for Belfast

I'd love to have a complete system for my own hives but it costs a fortune

Don't get him started though on the build quality of the electronics, or the need to reboot from time to time (or was it an issue to do with the battery?). ;)

[busybeephilip]

Don't get him started though on the build quality of the electronics, or the need to reboot from time to time (or was it an issue to do with the battery?). ;)


Yes, I'm aware of the problems during the initial set up at Minnowburn but the Arnia people were very good in sorting out the problems. I beleive it was due to ingress of moisture into the electronics and bad signal coverage due to the remoteness of the location that were the main problems. Even with that the system is supposed to be very useful as a watchman for your hives.

I've seen hive profiles from Dromore association which showed typical weight gain and losses that a beekeeper would expect with hives in that area (out in the country) , I would imagine profiles for Belfast would be different given the increase in variable floral conditions from the urban setting

[alancooper]

The optimum temperature for secretion .... and the average nectar yield varied significantly among clones of different geographical origin. One clone secreted two to four times more than others at 10°C. ..... suggests that breeding for high nectar production at low temperature is plausible.

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/74/4/327.full.pdf+html

As beeks, most of us know the value of locally adapted honey bees. There are also many locally adapted wild plant populations (clones) that are valuable to us. We should not forget the importance of maintaining local clovers and other local forage plants in grasslands so that plant breeders still have the building blocks to work on.