Eggheads ... here's one for you

[Kate Atchley]

Hey folks, ever wondered why we don't give the bees eggs about to hatch and let them decide when to start queen cell building? Cupkit/Jenter would make this a doddle ... but what's the snag? Would they just eat them?

There must be some good reason why we seek newly hatched larvae in all their vulnerability?

Kate

[Jon]

The usually wont start queen cells from eggs. They remove them from the cells.

[fatshark]

But didn't some of those old guys (or girls) use to send eggs through the post for queen rearing?? No idea where I've read this (Laidlaw??). I presume they a) used the eggs in the original comb rather than transplanting them and b) had a speedier postal service than we now enjoy.

[Jon]

I would guess you post the eggs in a bit of comb then set the comb into a similar sized gap in a frame so that the eggs hatch into larvae before grafting.

[mbc]

Steve Tabor goes to some lengths in his book "breeding super bees", to describe techniques to collect eggs, modified tweezers and such, really it's only useful for research purposes as there's no advantage to using eggs and loads of disadvantages :
-they are glued to their cell
-some are un viable
-bees commonly cannibalise eggs

Once they're hatched, eggs turn into a lovely little larvae which not only floats (ready to be lifted out) on its own bed of jelly, but has already proved it's viable and emits lots of attractive pheromones so that they are far more likely to be accepted than an egg.

[prakel]

Steve Tabor goes to some lengths in his book "breeding super bees", to describe techniques to collect eggs

Interesting book. I started to copy out a couple of the primary paragraphs last night, then thought....why bother? Not at all sure that anyone actually reads this stuff.


Hey folks, ever wondered why we don't give the bees eggs about to hatch and let them decide when to start queen cell building? Cupkit/Jenter would make this a doddle ... but what's the snag? Would they just eat them?

There must be some good reason why we seek newly hatched larvae in all their vulnerability?

Kate

I've actually been trying to do something very similar over the last six weeks or so; using the Jay Smith take on the Alley method. Cutting strips of cells; gluing the strip to the cell-bar and then knocking out a minimum of two out of every three. Works fine with appropriate larvae of course but whether it's possible to find a way of getting satisfactory (quantity) results with eggs I'm not so sure -a lot of negatives to contend with as mbc pointed out. So far, it seems that they're more prepared to leave a few eggs to hatch if they've got ready-to-go larvae to get on with immediately.

[Kate Atchley]

Interesting book. I started to copy out a couple of the primary paragraphs last night, then thought....why bother? Not at all sure that anyone actually reads this stuff. ...
Sad as it may be, I read this stuff! Really value all you share.

[busybeephilip]

I would guess you post the eggs in a bit of comb then set the comb into a similar sized gap in a frame so that the eggs hatch into larvae before grafting.

Only done for research purposes or for those who specialize in breeding, comb not sent as it increases the risk of disease, the comb is given a really good whack and the eggs will fall out, if kept cool hatching can be delayed. I guess using the nicot plastic box with cell cups would be a much better and cleaner alternative if someone really was wanting to do this then there is less risk of egg damage.

I'm sure the same rules apply when posting to different countries where a health certificate etc would be needed

I wonder if eggs would survive dilute hypochlorite soln ?

[busybeephilip]

Maybe this helps:

2.1.3 Eggs
Honey bee eggs are a minor and insignificant form of transfer of Apis mellifera genetic
material. There is no routine trade in honey bee eggs, and they do not appear to be used by
bee breeding units to transfer genetic material over long distances.
Direct transfer of eggs from worker cells into queen cells using instruments such as forceps is
impractical because honey bee eggs are very fragile (Weiss, 1983a). Commercial devices
have been developed to encourage the queen to lay eggs in artificial cells that can then be
transferred individually for queen rearing purposes.
There is no record of ova (the mature reproductive cell while still within the queen bee’s
ovaries) being used for transfer of A. mellifera genetic material.
Honey bee eggs can remain viable for up to three days provided the egg at time of removal
from the colony is at least 1.5 days old (Weiss, 1983b). Eggs can withstand temperatures as
low as 15˚C, and have been successfully mailed long distances.

2.1.4 Semen
Semen collected from honey bee drones is a minor, although important, form of transfer of
Apis mellifera genetic material. No routine trade exists in this commodity, although honey
bee semen is used in honey bee breeding programmes, and is sometimes sent between
breeding units within or between countries.
4 > Honey bee genetic material MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY
The semen is collected by everting and ejaculating mature honey bee drones and then taking
up the semen that has been deposited on the exposed genitalia using a specially constructed
syringe (Laidlaw, 1977). The semen is held directly in the syringe or transferred into a
capillary tube (Harbo, 1985). In most cases, the semen is held in a buffered saline or ‘Kiev’
citrate solution, with an antibiotic such as sulphanilamide to protect the semen from bacterial
contamination (Ruttner, 1976; Laidlaw, 1977; Harbo, 1985). Semen is generally collected
from a number of drones, and is sometimes homogeneously mixed (Moritz, 1983).
Research has been carried out in an attempt to prolong the storage period of honey bee semen,
including the use of freezing techniques (Harbo, 1983; Cobey, 1983). However, rapid
freezing and thawing of honey bee semen causes significant decreases in cell viability
compared to fresh semen (Peng et al, 1992). Homogeneous mixing of semen also
significantly decreases viability (Collins, 2000a) whereas unmixed semen retains its viability
remarkably over time, with 79.5% viability after six months (Collins, 2000b). Honey bee
semen is therefore generally stored at room temperature in an unmixed form. No significant
loss of viable spermatozoa was found over a period of six weeks with honey bee semen held
at either 12o
C or 25o
C (Collins, 2000c).

[Jon]

I remember some of the bibba people discussed posting eggs in comb a few years ago. I could not see the point in it as it is easy to post mated queens so why would you faff around with eggs.

[busybeephilip]

Posting 100 eggs in cell cups ready to hatch is a lot more productive. But then we all love to faff about, its part of beekeeping

[Jon]

I am sure a chunk of comb with eggs, posted in a lunch box would produce a few larvae to graft

[busybeephilip]

see

http://www.almondboard.com/PR/A.2009.09-POLL4-Cobey.Cobey.Honey%20Bee%20Stock%20Improvement.pdf

I suppose this is the way to do it, but you'll need a pair of black knickers :)

"no need for an incubator"

[Calum]

Sad as it may be, I read this stuff! Really value all you share.
me too!

[prakel]

Steve Taber: (http://northernbeebooks.us7.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=e9d36cf977295a1daae769056&id=b129fa23f7&e=d15ce7e56e) without wishing to detract from an interesting thread this might be a good opportunity to mention that Northern Bee Books have just published a collection of Taber's articles which were originally published in beekeepers quarterly.

[fatshark]

see

http://www.almondboard.com/PR/A.2009.09-POLL4-Cobey.Cobey.Honey%20Bee%20Stock%20Improvement.pdf

I suppose this is the way to do it, but you'll need a pair of black knickers :)

"no need for an incubator"

Aargh! … egg smuggling … something else to fret about. But I think I'd worry more about wearing neoprene knickers to keep 'em warm. Ewww.

[Wmfd]

me too!

And me!