encore demaree

[greengumbo]

Hive that I artificially swarmed by doing a vertical demaree is at it again. Originally I moved brood up top and queen +new foundation below with QE and super in between.

Three weeks later the upper brood box is now being backfilled with honey and the lower brood box with queen is full of drawn comb, BIAS, a few nearly sealed queen cells and a very slimmed down queen.

Prior to the almighty storm last night was when I was inspecting so I hastily did a second A/S with what I had to hand but instead of foundation I just moved the brood frames up top and put the backfilled frames with queen down below.

The queen is clipped and marked. Will a second A/S work or should I just split the hive ? Thoughts ?

[Feckless Drone]

The queen is clipped and marked. Will a second A/S work or should I just split the hive ? Thoughts ?

I find this happens most of the time, the old Q has another go even after putting an excluder on the floor to keep her in until she has started laying again. I wonder if this has to do with the timing and presence of some flow (OSR). At first when I saw this I just tried removing the cells but then they would just raise more or I missed one and lose my clipped Q. What I've started to do is remove the old Q in a small nucleus colony and feed small doses of syrup then let the old colony raise a Q. At this time, then there are no young bees or very few, and the flying bees still bring in some honey. After I harvest, and into end of june should be left with two new Qs one on top the other with the old Q as insurance. Then I'll decide what to do depending on how the new Q's look/perform. Its not the most efficient way but if the stock is swarmy or conditions encourage it then it seems one approach. Without doubt, the best honey yields in my case have come when the old Q does not have another go at swarming but just gets laying again. Such a lovely Q, that I judged was less swarmy, was selected to raise the mother of three Q's, however, all of whom subsequently have been going to swarm after AS.

[fatshark]

I've had about 50:50 success this year using the Demaree and suspect it's because I might have started a bit late on a couple of occasions. If I remember correctly - which, increasingly, I don't - the method was originally designed to be applied before the colony starts to make (obvious) swarm preparations. Some appear to have settled down after a second round of knocking cells back. I've never put excluders under the bottom box or resorted to taking the Q out in a nuc … if they're that determined to go I've usually resorted to splitting the colony up for nucs and queen rearing. In one box that continued to draw cells in the bottom chamber the original Q has now disappeared … presumably not swarmed as she was clipped, so they may have just done 'er in. I've left the blighters with a good sealed cell and will look again later this month. In contrast, other colonies have behaved impeccably.

So, that's not much help to you at all. Other than confirming similar experiences. Apologies.

[greengumbo]

Yup I was too late I think in starting. In my, shaky, defence this colony was ahead of the other ones in expanding to full lang brood by a good three / four weeks. Think I should be grafting from this genetic line !

Went along this morning and blocked the entrance to the bottom brood box and added a new entrance to the upper and supers. Using that modern beekeeping anti swarm queen excluder. Hopefully the queen will settle down and fatten up again soon. In the meantime I have popped a frame of cupkit cells in the upper box ready for grafting in a few days. Will cram more bees in by putting in a large blank and removing some brood to another hive. Also did an A/S on another hive this morning which is bursting at the seams. Unfortunately my lovely Maud/Tayside Gav grafted queen is producing loads of chalkbrood and not really expanding much so may be for the chop this year or at least retired to a nuc.

[fatshark]

In the meantime I have popped a frame of cupkit cells in the upper box ready for grafting in a few days.

I stopped doing this … I just graft into the frame and drop it into the colony (gently). I've not noticed any difference in acceptance rates between those lovingly bathed in 1:1 syrup and allowed to reach temperature for 24 hours etc etc., and those when I just grab the cell bar frame from wherever I last put it for safe keeping and get grafting.

Trying a Cloake board at the moment for the first time - checking grafts this evening. Always exciting trying something new … and there's the added tension that the bottom box was thinking of going AWOL.

That's not the sort of advertising the 'Tayside Gav' needs ;) Might be worth boosting the bee numbers if she's worth rescuing. Chalkbrood can disappear with busy colonies.

[greengumbo]

I stopped doing this … I just graft into the frame and drop it into the colony (gently). I've not noticed any difference in acceptance rates between those lovingly bathed in 1:1 syrup and allowed to reach temperature for 24 hours etc etc., and those when I just grab the cell bar frame from wherever I last put it for safe keeping and get grafting.

Trying a Cloake board at the moment for the first time - checking grafts this evening. Always exciting trying something new … and there's the added tension that the bottom box was thinking of going AWOL.

That's not the sort of advertising the 'Tayside Gav' needs ;) Might be worth boosting the bee numbers if she's worth rescuing. Chalkbrood can disappear with busy colonies.

Oh god I hope I haven't dented his PR. Just to be clear the queen in question came from a graft taken from my own stocks and then mated down in Tayside, and not in the shiny new AMM mating apiary !!! Feel free to delete the offending quote Gav if it sounds like I'm slating you !!!

Bee numbers pretty good in that hive...they fill a poly lang but no sign of swarm cells or eggs in QCups yet and plenty chalk. Maybe a shook swarm needed and thymolated syrup feed - too late ?

[Jon]

I stopped doing this … I just graft into the frame and drop it into the colony (gently). I've not noticed any difference in acceptance rates between those lovingly bathed in 1:1 syrup and allowed to reach temperature for 24 hours etc etc., and those when I just grab the cell bar frame from wherever I last put it for safe keeping and get grafting.

Same here fatshark. Almost all of the stuff you are told is essential with regard to grafting is unnecessary.
I just graft dry into cups and drop in the frame into the cell starter.
Other stuff you can safely ignore is the advice not to shake the bees off the frame you are taking grafts from. Just shake off the bees and graft. It does not damage the larvae. Some faff around with a bee brush.
The one that is really unnecessary is the advice to leave the apidea for 3 days in the dark before opening.
If I add the virgin and bees at the same time I open it the following day.
If I add the bees and then introduce a queen cell I open it as soon as the virgin has emerged from the cell.
Yet more silly advice is the advice to introduce a cell in a cell protector or wrapped in tinfoil. Totally undecessary and only making extra work for yourself.
Those who say a marked virgin will be more visible to a bird and get eaten - again you can ignore that.

[greengumbo]

Same here fatshark. Almost all of the stuff you are told is essential with regard to grafting is unnecessary.
I just graft dry into cups and drop in the frame into the cell starter.
Other stuff you can safely ignore is the advice not to shake the bees off the frame you are taking grafts from. Just shake off the bees and graft. It does not damage the larvae. Some faff around with a bee brush.
The one that is really unnecessary is the advice to leave the apidea for 3 days in the dark before opening.
If I add the virgin and bees at the same time I open it the following day.
If I add the bees and then introduce a queen cell I open it as soon as the virgin has emerged from the cell.
Yet more silly advice is the advice to introduce a cell in a cell protector or wrapped in tinfoil. Totally undecessary and only making extra work for yourself.
Those who say a marked virgin will be more visible to a bird and get eaten - again you can ignore that.

This is all good advice. Cheers Jon !

[mbc]

Same here fatshark. Almost all of the stuff you are told is essential with regard to grafting is unnecessary.
I just graft dry into cups and drop in the frame into the cell starter.
Other stuff you can safely ignore is the advice not to shake the bees off the frame you are taking grafts from. Just shake off the bees and graft. It does not damage the larvae. Some faff around with a bee brush.
The one that is really unnecessary is the advice to leave the apidea for 3 days in the dark before opening.
If I add the virgin and bees at the same time I open it the following day.
If I add the bees and then introduce a queen cell I open it as soon as the virgin has emerged from the cell.
Yet more silly advice is the advice to introduce a cell in a cell protector or wrapped in tinfoil. Totally undecessary and only making extra work for yourself.
Those who say a marked virgin will be more visible to a bird and get eaten - again you can ignore that.

I protect my cells with a wrap of insulation tape, it helps imho( especially essential for superseded requeening) takes a second.
I also get more success preconditioning the cell cups to be grafted into, I like to pop the grafting frame and the frame of larvae to be grafted into the cell builder in the morning at the same time as making them queenless. By the afternoon when I'm ready to graft the bees have already obviously chosen some larvae as they're swimming in more jelly than the others, and any mess left in the cell cups(yes, I'm that tight I reuse them!) is cleaned up and makes the cups easier to graft into and gives a better acceptance imho.
Horses for courses as with all beekeeping, we evolve systems which work for us.

Edit, neither would I mark virgins, but then I don't use an incubator and find cells are better accepted than virgins.

[Adam]

I've done a few demarees with 4 on the go now. Success seems (to me) to depend on the flavour of bee. One 'strain' I have - originally a carniolan caught swarm - will generally swarm after a demaree is carried out, others don't - even if it's left too late and there are sealed queencells in the hive and still the queen; once 12 frames of brood are pushed upstairs, then the queen starts to lay again down below. In past years, the colony might still build up and then decide to swarm even after a double demaree (process repeated a few weeks later). A demaree is no guarantee of a never-swarm-hive - this year the 4 I have done are currently OK; time will tell whether they behave as I want them to.

Note that I've not got it in for carni's - I haven't done enough demarees with them for a statistically significant answer!

[The Drone Ranger]

Greengumbo I think things were slightly later this year I put Snegrove boards on at the start of last week in May.
With boards you seldom get away with it if they have started queen cells so I just take the queen and some brood to a nuc in those circumstances and reduce all the cells a few days after to 1 big juicy one :)

[The Drone Ranger]

I have a zero tolerance policy on chalkbrood and just burn all the combs and give them another box with foundation

[Jon]

Edit, neither would I mark virgins, but then I don't use an incubator and find cells are better accepted than virgins.

I only add virgins at the same time as a scoop of wet bees. Once the first queen is mated I use queen cells. Running in virgins as many advise I find is carnage and you lose the half of them. When you add a wet scoop of bees on top of the virgin via the floor of the apidea you rarely lose one. I have done about 70 so far this year like this and I don't think I have lost any.

If reusing cell cups it helps to put them in for a day as the bees leave them spotless.

[Emma]

Greengumbo I think things were slightly later this year I put Snegrove boards on at the start of last week in May.
With boards you seldom get away with it if they have started queen cells so I just take the queen and some brood to a nuc in those circumstances and reduce all the cells a few days after to 1 big juicy one :)

I tried using a Snelgrove board on a couple of colonies last year, for the first time. Waited for signs of swarm preparations, then did an A.S. with empty frames or combs & queen below, brood above, Snelgrove in between. I didn't destroy any queen cells but instead bled bees from top to bottom by switching entrances. I had to keep travelling away for days at a time, so my timing was a bit rough & ready, and results were mixed. It put me off trying Snelgrove again, which is a shame as it'd sounded a great tool, especially if you're trying to keep the apiary footprint small.

Are you saying that you find that the Snelgrove board works better for pre-emptive demarees, before the bees have made up their minds to swarm? Hadn't thought of that...

[Emma]

Oh god I hope I haven't dented his PR. Just to be clear the queen in question came from a graft taken from my own stocks and then mated down in Tayside...

Bee numbers pretty good in that hive...they fill a poly lang but no sign of swarm cells or eggs in QCups yet and plenty chalk. Maybe a shook swarm needed and thymolated syrup feed - too late ?

I'm running 4 queens this year from the same line as that one of yours, Greengumbo. Two were mated with hand-picked drones from Tayside (& thereabouts), two with my own gorgeous mongrel boys &/or random locals. All four were surprisingly chalky this spring. Less so in the less draughty nests; where they were mated made no obvious difference. I don't feed in the spring, unless I really have to, which was maybe a bit hard on them with this year's weather - they've been building up nicely since the flow came on. A couple have got as far as eggs in queen cups, but so far ekeing out the brood nests a comb at a time has distracted them from going any further!

@Drone ranger I've once or twice had chalkbrood appear on fairly recently-drawn brood nests. I'm still keen to replace comb, but I'm setting my hopes on insulation & draughtproofing. I have old hives & I've seen a very strong correlation between draughts & chalkbrood. (Especially one time in 2013 - stupid, stupid, _stupid_ beekeeper!) It's encouraging that replacing comb works for you - I might try to do that even more. I'm reluctant to lose the queenline as the bees are just such a delight to work with - calm on the comb; great at overwintering; lovely temperament. The latter is particularly useful where I stay, as we have a lot of gardening volunteers & visitors, many of whom like to be introduced to the bees.

[The Drone Ranger]

I tried using a Snelgrove board on a couple of colonies last year, for the first time. Waited for signs of swarm preparations, then did an A.S. with empty frames or combs & queen below, brood above, Snelgrove in between. I didn't destroy any queen cells but instead bled bees from top to bottom by switching entrances. I had to keep travelling away for days at a time, so my timing was a bit rough & ready, and results were mixed. It put me off trying Snelgrove again, which is a shame as it'd sounded a great tool, especially if you're trying to keep the apiary footprint small.

Are you saying that you find that the Snelgrove board works better for pre-emptive demarees, before the bees have made up their minds to swarm? Hadn't thought of that...

Hi Emma
The plan should be to have your bees on a double brood box first
You have to get a snelgrove board on before they make any queen cells
When you begin to see drones wandering around in your hive that should be about the right time
Once they start preparations to swarm it's too late (eggs in queen cups)
(Snelgroves method 2 is what he recommends when queen cells are discovered but I haven't found that reliable)
I couldn't give advice on demarree but it takes more work and in our unreliable weather you can't always do inspections when you need to
All these swarm control methods are aimed at preventing the swarrming impulse
Once they make queen cells you need another plan of action
Hope that makes sense



@Drone ranger I've once or twice had chalkbrood appear on fairly recently-drawn brood nests. I'm still keen to replace comb, but I'm setting my hopes on insulation & draughtproofing. I have old hives & I've seen a very strong correlation between draughts & chalkbrood

Shortage of food in spring can make things worse and although chalkbrood is a fungus that is found in the environment the main probllem is mostly beekeeper activity spreading it from one hive to another
So any combs which have been in contact with chalkbrood are contaminated and tend to get put in another hive at some point speading the problem to otherwise healthy bees
If you have a good nectar flow and the bees are drawing wax it's better to sacrifice the contaminated brood in the fire and give the bees a clean hive, new combs and a bit of syrup to help start drawing
Other solutions might work but they haven't for me in the past

[greengumbo]

I only add virgins at the same time as a scoop of wet bees. Once the first queen is mated I use queen cells. Running in virgins as many advise I find is carnage and you lose the half of them. When you add a wet scoop of bees on top of the virgin via the floor of the apidea you rarely lose one. I have done about 70 so far this year like this and I don't think I have lost any.

If reusing cell cups it helps to put them in for a day as the bees leave them spotless.

Hi John, when you say wet do you mean water wet or light syrup spray wet ? I usually run virgins into the hive with a good puff of smoke but like you say it is hit and miss.

I thought about spraying them with syrup and dumping on the virgin queen in the mating nuc then locking up for a few days.

[gavin]

Water, I'll wager. Though the bees do seem to end up sticky: I guess they add their own sugar.

[gavin]

Oh, and I'm not at all bothered by your comments on chalkbrood :-) Yes, that line I grafted from eggs from your Amm-ish queen has produced some nice and some not so nice progeny. It also threw one colony that has a lot of yellow stripy types. I guess that queen came from the same Aberdeenshire mating that was giving you some stripy bees in the mother colony.

Chalkbrood has generally been worse than average this year. All that cold weather affecting colonies stretching themselves for the spring build-up, probably.

[Jon]

Yes just a water spray GG. By the time the bees have cleaned themselves up the virgin is part of the family.
the success rate for introduction like this is near 100%

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Jon.
those cell protectors Thornes sell are meant for when a bad queen is removed and a ripe Queen Cell is to be put in soon after so it hatches before any the bad bees cells they start are ready
I havent ever used one but thats what they were originally for.
I think the foil is just a modern substitute.
Snelgroves Introduction of Queen Bees has the full lowdown on when they make sense
Possibly folk take an unnecessary belt and braces approach

[prakel]

They're also handy in times of shortage -if the nuc isn't being fed and there's little forage it's amazing how quickly they can pull down a cell. How that's going to help their cause I don't now but it sure happens.

[fatshark]

My Demaree success rate has just slipped from 50:50 … got to a colony this afternoon to find an open (emerged) couple of QC's and a distinct shortage of bees. Oops. A friend popped round to say he'd seen a swarm disappear over his house a couple of hours earlier. First one I've lost this year. I'd known the colony was thinking of going AWOL and had split off a nuc with the queen - lovely calm bees - leaving one big QC. After that it all went wrong … :( Win some, lose some.

On a brighter note, I've got some newly mated and laying queens in my two-frame nucs and Wiggo looks like he's going to completely destroy the world hour record … 34mph on a pushbike. Awesome.

[Poly Hive]

There is no need for an incubator, just one further step in the rearing process. Starter box first then started cells into top supers for finishing. When sealed put in cages to emerge again in a top super and you have virgins under control which you can mark if you wish. I can't say I have noticed many vanishing due to the marking or other factors like birds. I was interested that Clive de Bruyn didn't mention the cages in his recent series in Bee Craft.

PH

[busybeephilip]

There is no need for an incubator

PH

Yep, I agree there is an element of truth in that statement. However, if you have cages in a nursery colony and the bottom of one (hair roller NICOT type) should pop open, as can happen, then that wee virgin will systematically destroy every uncaged cell in the box. I suppose its only of necessity if you are rearing hundreds of queens.

[Adam]

Chalkbrood has generally been worse than average this year. All that cold weather affecting colonies stretching themselves for the spring build-up, probably.
Chalkbrood seems to be very seasonal; pretty well nothing this year for me but 2 or 3 years ago there was lots. However the worst colonies would have their queens replaced and there is some queen-dependantness* about it..

*I think this is a new word; for me at least! :)

[Jon]

There is no need for an incubator, just one further step in the rearing process.

PH

I never used an incubator until last year but is is probably the best £120 I ever spent.
You can raise far more queens in a given time by moving them to the incubator after sealing and getting a fresh frame of grafts through whatever starter-finisher setup you have chosen.

[Calum]

Just read what a Demaree is... oh dear.
Why not just move the brood part of the hive with queen off to the side, and leave the supers with a frame of very young larve/ grafts?
Almost as effective for not loosing honey production, less hassle and very good at putting the breaks on swarming tendancies...
No hassles looking for a skinney queen (especially as mine are usually unmarked...)

[The Drone Ranger]

Just read what a Demaree is... oh dear.
Why not just move the brood part of the hive with queen off to the side, and leave the supers with a frame of very young larve/ grafts?
Almost as effective for not loosing honey production, less hassle and very good at putting the breaks on swarming tendancies...
No hassles looking for a skinney queen (especially as mine are usually unmarked...)

Hi Calum
I prefer a swarm board but the idea is the same you dont need a spare floor ,crownboard and roof
The board is easier
You tend to "fall out" with even the gentlest hives if you haul them apart all the time :)

[Calum]

a swarm board, just read up on it... seems a really nice method- I'd like to try (except it would be very tricky @ my bee houses), is it very reliable (the swarm does not alight often)?
My described method, is really low on colony disruption, you just need to find a frame of brood that the bees can make a queen (s) from. There should be enough young bees in the supers to raise a good quality queen.

[fatshark]

Calum … I expect The DR means one of these:
2302

[Calum]

Aha ok, thank you for the clarification! I thought a Taravnov board was meant - Google got me good.....
Yeah. Also trickey in a beehouse, but and excellent option - does the smell of the queen getting thought that grille (on the one pictured) not cause confusion?

[fatshark]

I'm not the right person to answer the question really … however, I have used a Horsley board which has a sort of switchable upper entrance and queen excluder, together with an open mesh area. You can use this to generate a two queen system in which the two colonies are 'connected' via the mesh, so presumably any confusion is limited or irrelevant. Even less use in your bee house I should think as I seem to remember you have to reverse the way the entrance faces on the upper box during manipulations.

[Emma]

Hi Emma
The plan should be to have your bees on a double brood box first
You have to get a snelgrove board on before they make any queen cells
When you begin to see drones wandering around in your hive that should be about the right time
Once they start preparations to swarm it's too late (eggs in queen cups)
(Snelgroves method 2 is what he recommends when queen cells are discovered but I haven't found that reliable)
I couldn't give advice on demarree but it takes more work and in our unreliable weather you can't always do inspections when you need to
All these swarm control methods are aimed at preventing the swarrming impulse
Once they make queen cells you need another plan of action
Hope that makes sense




Shortage of food in spring can make things worse and although chalkbrood is a fungus that is found in the environment the main probllem is mostly beekeeper activity spreading it from one hive to another
So any combs which have been in contact with chalkbrood are contaminated and tend to get put in another hive at some point speading the problem to otherwise healthy bees
If you have a good nectar flow and the bees are drawing wax it's better to sacrifice the contaminated brood in the fire and give the bees a clean hive, new combs and a bit of syrup to help start drawing
Other solutions might work but they haven't for me in the past

I did a demaree a few days ago, wanting to get the brood into a deep box instead of the shallows they ended up in last autumn. I'm now just back from a couple of days away, & the weather's turned: I am _so_ wishing I'd bought time by using a Snelgrove board instead of just a queen excluder! They hadn't started making queen cells - they were just finishing off a beautiful job of expanding into the available space - so I'll be fascinated to see how they've responded to the demaree. (Fascinated, & probably roundly told off for going into the brood nest on a day like this.)
On the chalk brood - I've been thinking about it a lot. I've had less time to post, in fact, because of spending more time cleaning up boxes! I've always been scrupulous about moving equipment between unrelated colonies, but less bothered about re-using boxes from one generation to the next as I A.S. existing colonies. I've changed a lot of brood comb, but rarely a whole nest at a time - it's such an impact in uncertain weather, especially for small colonies.
But most of all, I'm realising I've just always accepted a bit of chalkbrood as a given. My first bees were established colonies with some very black old combs, & I learned to recognise those fungus mummies early on. The bees have always survived, usually thrived... but it would be great to see broodnests completely clear of the stuff.
Except that - where did I hear this one? - there's an idea floating around that a bit of chalkbrood is somehow a bit protective against EFB? Something to do with claiming the niche in the hive ecosystem that EFB would otherwise occupy?
Lovely lovely lovely thought, if it were true...

[The Drone Ranger]

I am not sure that protective thing is right Emma
The theory is is where Chalk is present any stressed / undeweight /underfed/ larva get chalkbrood so dont survive long enough to spread the EFB or whatever
Gavin posted some pics of a major EFB outbreak some years back and those bees were showing lots of chalkbrood in conjunction with EFB (so it didn't make any difference in that case).
When there is Chalk I suspect it means other brood problems take longer to be spotted.

If chalkbrood is around after Spring especially during a flow then the bees might be unhygenic so not good at cleaning the brood nest and would also be susceptible to other brood diseases There a requeen would be established thinking
Mostly though its the combs not the bees that are at fault and spore infected old combs are brought into play as the broodnest expands (Could be boxes they can be steam cleaned or bleached)

I'm sure you can eradicate chalkbrood from your hives over time best of luck with it :)
DR

[Emma]

Hi DR,
I checked my notes: nothing substantial to back up the chalkbrood-supplants-EFB idea. And that's a strong, clear counter-example you're quoting. Hey ho. It is a _really_ nice idea, but I do like to reality-check.
I doubt I'll eradicate chalkbrood - especially not if it means burning live brood. But I've been doing a bit more scorching & scraping of boxes again these last few days. And next winter maybe I'll get organised enough to dig out that old bottle of acetic acid again. (There are always so many things waiting for "next winter".) Just saw too darn much of the stuff, this spring. Not that it seems to have dampened their spirits much!

[fatshark]

I see that the spammers have trashed recent images:
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?1980-encore-demaree&p=30464&viewfull=1#post30464
which is a pity as I was looking for something to copy … on a related point, there's a good account of using these types of split boards here (http://www.kentbee.com/swarm/swarming.html). Which has a reasonably details description of swarm management vertically i.e. under one roof.