Queenless colony at this time of year?

[mikemilespitcairn]

Is a queen less colony with signs of laying workers at this time of year a total write-off?
Mike

[Jon]

If it has laying workers I would say it is a write off as it must have been queenless for quite a while.
A laying worker colony is hardly worth the bother at any time of year.

[mikemilespitcairn]

If it has laying workers I would say it is a write off as it must have been queenless for quite a while.
A laying worker colony is hardly worth the bother at any time of year.

Thanks Jon,
Although we felt this was probably the case, we did give them a frame with eggs to see what they would do with it. Even if they do rear a queen, it will probably be far to early for drones to be flying.
Do these colonies create problems when you try to unite them?

[Jon]

Thanks Jon,

Do these colonies create problems when you try to unite them?

They can do. The laying workers could kill the queen in the other colony.
The bees will be so old at this point they will add little or no value to any colony they are united to.
Are there a lot of bees left in this colony?

[fatshark]

It's definitely laying workers and not a drone laying queen? Dispersed rather than tight drone brood pattern.

[Adam]

It will do harm to see what they do with the frame of brood - it can always be popped back into the donor hive in a week or so. Are there old queencells in the hive from last autumn perhaps? There could be a virgin in there that was a supercedure queen that was too late to mate in which case she can be removed and the colony united with another. A close examination is probably needed before you do anything drastic.

[mikemilespitcairn]

Thanks Guys,
To answer your question in detail........
It's not a large colony; bees on about 5 frames.

I am fairly confident that the sealed brood, larvae and eggs seen in the hive now are from laying workers. One frame has a small area of 20-30 randomly distributed, sealed drone cells, with larvae spread amongst them with eggs around them. The eggs, although mostly singles, are on the sides and bottom of the cells and even some close to the rim.

There were no queen cells visible on the quick inspection we undertook yesterday.

We will probably check the frame in a few days time and if there is no sign of queen cells we will destroy the bees.
Mike

[gavin]

What I would do with a hopeless case is shake the bees out some distance (10m+) away on a good flying day, and don't replace the box on the stand for now. I've never had problems with queens in the hives accepting those bees. There might be some tussling when the flying bees go to adjacent hives but they are usually accepted after some questioning at the door.

[mikemilespitcairn]

What I would do with a hopeless case is shake the bees out some distance (10m+) away on a good flying day, and don't replace the box on the stand for now. I've never had problems with queens in the hives accepting those bees. There might be some tussling when the flying bees go to adjacent hives but they are usually accepted after some questioning at the door.

Hi Gavin,
Just got our broadband back so I'm catching up with mail etc.
Yes, I'd much prefer to do this as I hate to have to kill bees although I have read on some of the forums that the laying workers can find their way back to the hive if you are wanting them to return to the original hive. If they are trying to gain access to another hive they may get rejected no matter how submissive they are.
Mike

[Hoomin_erra]

If i can join in.... i too have a problem colony. When i checked them on 18th March, all my hives were good, with queens seen, as well as brood and eggs. When i checked again on Sunday (5th April) one hive has no brood or eggs. Queen is still there and looks healthy enough, but numbers and stores have dropped. I suspect that the hive is being robbed by the others. Would a frame of brood and eggs from another hive, and then a relocation of the hive help restart the queen?

[mikemilespitcairn]

Hi Hoomin_erra,
We have a similar colony in our association apiary but on last inspection there appeared to be good areas of fresh eggs the queen may have restarted with this warmer weather and more pollen and nectar coming into the hive. Initially, I would suggest you take precautions against robbing by reducing the entrance to 10-15mm, give them a small feed of light syrup if required and check in another week for eggs and larvae. Moving frames around always carries some risk and if the number of bees in the hive has dropped there may not be enough nurse bees to cover the extra brood. Moving to another site a few miles away will reduce robbing pressure if you have that option but a lot can change in a week if she comes back on to lay.

[Adam]

If a colony is being robbed by another in the same apiary, you may well see late activity from both hives - i.e. after the other hives have stopped flying. If you have another apiary, that should sort out the problem but best to move the robbers rather than the robbed as the robbers might move to another hive if the can't find the one they were targeting.

An option that's worked for me is to close up each hive on alternate days for a few days. The robbers find the entrance closed of their target hive and after a few days give up. But each colony is shut in for one day at a time which is not too much of a hardship. Once the robbers find other sources of food and the robbed colony gets it's mojo back they should be hunky dory.

[alancooper]

A local beginner beek came through last winter with a strong nuc. In mid-May he carried out an artificial swarm and made a split but messed it up and ended with the queen on the "new" site and most of his bees on the "old" site. The old site drew queen cells. He culled them but left two sealed cells to mate. By mid June there was no sign of eggs, worker larvae or sealed worker brood but there were some drone cells and half a dozen sealed queen cells. My conclusion was that the colony had laying workers but the queen cells (and they did look good) puzzled me. Has anyone experienced similar?

[busybeephilip]

hi Alan - in a laying worker colony you do get a drone brood in worker cells and they will often try to raise a queen cell using an unfertilized egg resulting in a big fat larvae in a really nice looking queen cell, these cells sometimes are elongated look brilliant and but never hatch.

if its laying workers it will be very difficult to introduce a new mated or virgin queen but sounds as if yours might accept a queen cell from another hive(beekeeper) if they are trying to make Qcells. You could try giving a frame containing eggs and see if they will raise an emergency cell from those if they are in the mood to do so.

[alancooper]

hi Phil - thanks for this. Good to know that worker-laid Q cells can look so "normal". I put in a sealed Q cell from one of my hives last week - fingers crossed.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... My conclusion was that the colony had laying workers but the queen cells (and they did look good) puzzled me. Has anyone experienced similar?

Did somebody import capensis!?
Kitta

[Jon]

A laying worker colony will eventually try and make queen cells from drone larvae.

[HJBee]

I saw this a few weeks back, I suspected a laying worker as eggs were sporadic - but as soon as they were capped it confirmed it. So in went a frame with fully sealed Q/C (spare from another hive with multi Swarm Cells). She's hatched and hopefully mating.