Comparing Scotland and Bavaria

[Calum]

[This thread was split off from 'Today's news' by popular request. G.]

some interesting stats beekeeipnng in Bavaria:
31,000 beekeepers tending 250000 colonies (Germany has 100,000 beeks & 700,000 colonies)

Nr. action spend2014 in €
1EU beekeeping equipment 150.954,54
2EU varroa treatment 186.314,74
3EU Honey analysis 10.846,68
4EU Novice training through club 175.340,00
5BY Queen mating areas 34.221,00
6BY Bee health monitors 10.874,50
7BY Pay to beekeepers training novices
315.500,00
8BY beekeeping in schools projects 29.327,98
9BY Bio Beekeeping 48.400,00
Total for Bavaria 961.779,44

works out at about 31€ per beekeeper..
BY paid by bavarian state
EU paid 50:50 by Bavaria and EU
Summary of agricultural ministry of spend:
Beekeeping in the Free State of Bavaria and especially the work of the Bavarian beekeepers bring besides honey and wax a wealth - often not measurable - advantages and benefits for the environment and society .
Thus, we need more than ever a sustainable , comprehensive beekeeping in Bavaria !
The individual beekeepers and the clubs contributions have made the recent recovery of beekeeping possible.
The media widely reports that the number of beekeepers and bee keepers and beekeeper is steadily increasing . The beginners' courses offered many can hardly meet the demand.
the State Research Center for Agriculture continues to sponsor and advise to support the beekeeper best in commitment that brings the whole society benefits.

[gavin]

Interesting indeed.

Bavaria: 12.5 million inhabitants
Scotland: 5.3 million inhabitants

Anyone in the Scottish Government wish to comment?! :) Or the Scottish bee farmers?

Central funds:

- run a bee inspectorate, generally part-time on bees with other duties in govt outside the main beekeeping season
- bee inspectorate also gets involved in advising beekeepers (both of these much appreciated by the community I may add)
- occasional bailing out of the commerial sector in really bad years (unlike Bavaria the majority of commercial hives are run by a few big boys) which is generally but not exclusively spent on imports (it seems)

EU funds:

- used to subsidise the one (much appreciated) bee adviser in Scotland
- bee farmers have requested access to funds to subsidise their imports or possibly other things but I'm not aware that has happened

Hope I've got that right. Do correct me (publically or privately) if I've got that wrong.

For 99% of the beekeepers in Scotland, direct funding:

- no financial support for equipment
- no financial support for Varroa treatment
- no financial support for honey analysis
- no financial support for training novices through clubs
- no financial support for queen mating areas
- no financial support for bee health monitors (unless to compare with the Bavaria data this should mean the bee health support that comes via the Scottish Government at SASA, which is extensive)
- no pay (!) for those training novices (unless you count the SRUC adviser, see below)
- no funded beekeeping in schools projects (at least not from central funds, lots of volunteer activity)
- no bio-beekeping support

The remaining 1% of beekeepers might get occasional hand-outs in bad years, that is all.

I'd like to see data on the type of beekeeper in both countries/states compared to other EU countries. My impression is that here we have a divide between the commercial (often large-scale) beekeeper and the non-commercial very small scale hobbyist. Other countries seem to have a larger population in the middle ground. No longer content with just pointing this out, I've just this month set off down the road of joining that middle ground.

[mbc]

If it's anything like Wales up there, there is a wealth of grants administered by quango's which are available for things like business start up, purchasing processing equipment and upgrading facilities, for those with the patience and know how to endure the form filling and weaseling necessary, but all the eu monies specifically for beekeeping goes direct to the nbu.

[Calum]

Hi
to break it down a bit
1EU beekeeping equipment 30% of price before vat back (honey processing equipment primarily)
2EU varroa treatment 50% of cost (before VAT)
3EU Honey analysis 75% or free for antibiotic testing
4EU Novice training through club - club gets payments for seminars held
5BY Queen mating areas - they get 1€ for every queen sent for mating
6BY Bee health monitors 20-30€ per site visit
7BY Pay to beekeepers training novices -100€ / novice
8BY beekeeping in schools projects - 300€ per school
according to the stats each beekeeper in Bavaria has on average 8 colonies. I think that is about right, they breed like hamsters...

[drumgerry]

We're clearly missing a trick or ten here. Aren't we part of the same EU?

I've been rattling on about stuff like this for a few years now. There seems to be plenty for white elephant gravy train projects and the bee farmers but sweet fanny adams for ordinary beekeepers who keep most of the colonies and do most of the work. Aren't we providing a service to the countryside and society in general by keeping our bees? I would say we are and deserve both public and financial recognition of that.

Maybe we need an organisation that sees the problem and starts to effectively lobby government with the small/medium scale beekeeper in mind. I'm sorry to say it but I don't think the SBA has been up to the task to date.

[busybeephilip]

Maybe I'm wrong but i thought that there was money distributed to the 4 UK regions, NI, Scot, Wales, England via Conba's recommendations ? which the government use to supplement pay packs the civil servants who act or as bee inspectors, advisers, webmasters, disease analysis boffins etc.

So government will argue that beekeepers are getting a good service, handouts, advice, website, disease inspectors, varroa calculators, data collection on numbers of hives , honey produced, statistics, pending hive beetle advice/detection/hive destruction and compensation (Ha Haaa) and yes - its all free of charge !

It would be nice to see some of this money go towards a sugar feeding grant scheme where some of our costs could be recovered

[drumgerry]

I think Gavin gave a good analysis of what is actually done in the beekeeping realm by the Scottish government. But compare that to the Bavarian government as detailed by Calum. Night and day!

I think the only reason we don't get things like queen mating areas, sugar grant scheme etc etc is that our governing body isn't feeding the right information into government. Just look at how the BFA was able to click its fingers and get X thousand pounds worth of help after its winter losses a couple of years back. I know that funding was only a conditional, partial funding of their winter losses but it was funding nonetheless.

There's money to be had. My sincere wish is that it was targeted to where it could do some good. Funding of imports and community bee awareness schemes isn't that. For example imagine the good we could do if we had properly funded queen mating stations in our upland areas of which there is no shortage!

[Pete L]

For example imagine the good we could do if we had properly funded queen mating stations in our upland areas of which there is no shortage!

I believe it could be done, and on a big enough scale, without waiting around for government funding/help, people who are really determined, hell bent, on achieving something like this, they just get on and do it, no matter what.

[drumgerry]

Pete with all due respect I think that's part of the problem. All of our beekeeping relies on the goodwill and commitment (mental, financial, time etc) of amateurs. Whereas Calum shows us a different way is possible. And I know I don't have the time to set up and run a queen mating station without some form of compensation. Good luck to anyone who does have the time, money, will etc to do this unsupported.

[Calum]

Queen mating station isn't that big a deal, just needs the right spot and a good supplier of colonies for "fathering"- I got 300€ for supplying mating stations with father colonies and a nice crop of alpine honey.


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[drumgerry]

Out of interest Calum could you describe how the mating stations work in your area and what personnel are involved in them? I'm assuming that, like you, they get paid for whatever they put in as well - time, bees, hardware etc.

[Calum]

Our local queen mating station is up in the mountains in a valley that is surrounded by a “beekeeping free zone” It is assumed that because of its position that it is also free from feral colonies, that’s debateable (though so long as 99.9% of drones are purebred I think mission accomplished).
Six father colonies are placed on the site, these are proven pedigree queens, from at least two different breeding lines. They are strong colonies with plenty of stores of honey and pollen and plenty of space for rearing drones (2-3 frames). I culled the first frame of drones, but made sure this was done in time so that sexually mature drones would be available in the colonies on arrival. The owner of the father colonies maintains them - ensuring they have everything they need to produce plenty of drones.
Once a week beekeepers can take their queens (in apideas/EWKs) for breeding to the volunteers that gather them and take them to the mating site (in the early evening so queen flight is over up at the station). The local bee health inspector (also a volunteer) checks the apideas are strong enough, have enough food, and importantly are drone free (any not are send back immediately).
After two weeks on the site the apideas are returned to their owners. The bee health inspector or one of the beekeeper association board members will fill out the stock card (if wished).
We pay the association 1,50€ per queens sent (they divvy up that amongst the drivers, father colonies owners are compensated by the state agriculture board), regardless of the mating result (its gods fault if it rains for two weeks while your queens are there – you can ask him for your money back).
So it is worth while sending 3-5 queens on back to back weeks to spread your bets.
I try to have 2-3 pure bred overwintered queens to select stock from, their daughters I let mate with whatever they find at my bee-stand.
Here is also some handy info on page 7 (.http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEEQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibra.org.uk%2Fdownloads%2F201 30128_6%2Fdownload&ei=DKvdVIjTBMPOaIGhgIAJ&usg=AFQjCNFh40uezYoq5jE6z2ZD0MRNeEMshA&sig2=pnpzKG6KZKWayV8Ehst_lg)
Usually the volunteers are bringing plenty of their own queens up to the station. They only get some "help" for their petrol. Father colonies are supplied by local breeders - its good advertising for them and they get better prices for their own queens sales through it.
There is not really any equipment needed - we have a bee house for the father colonies (you can get snow up there in May) and stones for keeping apideas from getting blown over. The apideas are just placed on benches, tree stumps, old wooden fruit crates...
Everyone in the association is keen on helping out - even if they dont send their own queens for mating, the mated queens that come back, improve the avarage quality of the drones in the area for years later.

[drumgerry]

Fascinating stuff Calum. Sounds like there's still a fair bit of goodwill involved but with some added help from the state. It would be really interesting to see a breakdown of the 30k Euros in your list which is apportioned to queen mating stations. Surely it must pay for more than the bringing of father colonies to mating stations?

It would be truly amazing to see a similar network set up here in Scotland and I hope I see it in my lifetime.

Ps - your link doesn't work for me I'm afraid.

[Bridget]

The link works for me


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[chris]

Gavin, re your post #2296, does this mean that in Scotland it isn't possible to follow beekeeping courses at agricultural colleges?

[drumgerry]

Chris I'm not aware of any courses available in Scotland's colleges barring the occasional one or two day course offered on specific topics like varroa - I'm assuming when you say courses you mean longer term, one or two year things. Of course in days gone by there was Bernard Mobus and his set up at Craibstone in Aberdeenshire (about which I'm sure Poly Hive could give you lots of information).

[Calum]

Fascinating stuff Calum. Sounds like there's still a fair bit of goodwill involved but with some added help from the state. It would be really interesting to see a breakdown of the 30k Euros in your list which is apportioned to queen mating stations. Surely it must pay for more than the bringing of father colonies to mating stations?
Hi
there were no further details in the report regarding what the 30k was spent on.
I guess the 1€ / queen sent for mating adds up for the whole of Bavaria. I am not sure how many stations there are throughout bavaria. We have 2 locally.
A friend of mine mates 200 Queens a year (he's already got buyers for 70 colonies -150€ is the going rate this year).
Some cash will go to the monitor that is checking the "father colonies", I guess as it is a long drive from the beekeeping school in Kaufbeuren to anywhere he will get good mileage compensation.
I thought if I ever won the lottery, I'd go to an island on the west coast of scotland and breed AMMs just for chuckles with anyone who faniced. Rona was an idea for a location...
But I think I would rather go to Nepal (for example) and teach impoverished people how to earn money from beekeeping - something like that can change a whole family's fortunes for generations...
Though I would probably end up in Cuba for reasons I dont fully understand yet.
Such is life, but there is no traction anywhere in these dreams untill I buy a lottery ticket.
So I will just have to get rich the hard way. :(

[drumgerry]

Calum I took the 1 Euro to be the fee paid to the mating stations/associations who run them by individual beekeepers per queen sent for mating and not that paid out to queen mating stations by the Bavarian government. If that's the case I wonder where the 30k Euros is going? Care to speculate??

[Calum]

Hi
They get 1.5€ from the beekeeper And 1€ from the agricultural ministry per queen.


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[drumgerry]

Thanks for that Calum. I've got it straight in my head now. So potentially a wee bit of cash for the associations or at least some compensation for the work they do.

Would it be a terrible cheek to ask Gavin or one of the other mods to shift this whole exchange starting with Calum's facts and figures about Bavaria to another thread so that it doesn't get lost in the endless Today's News thread? It'd be good to have Calum's info readily accessible.

[Calum]

Thanks for that Calum. I've got it straight in my head now. So potentially a wee bit of cash for the associations or at least some compensation for the work they do.

Would it be a terrible cheek to ask Gavin or one of the other mods to shift this whole exchange starting with Calum's facts and figures about Bavaria to another thread so that it doesn't get lost in the endless Today's News thread? It'd be good to have Calum's info readily accessible.
:o didn't think they were that interesting... Lately a bit more laid back about posting anything much - after all this forum is for Scottish Beekeepers (in scotland), and I suppose I am more of a beekeeper in Germany, so much of my posts have little or no relevance.

[Bridget]

Well Calum I for one am always interested in news from elsewhere so don't stop posting


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[drumgerry]

You might be surprised how relevant your posts prove to be Calum. One of my dreams for us here in Scotland is to have a network of queen mating stations much like you do in Bavaria. So please keep posting Calum!

[gavin]

I'll third that! It is *always* interesting to hear how beekeeping differs in other countries and great to have them relayed to us by a Scot embedded in the beekeeping culture of his new home. The differences is public support are even more interesting.

[Pete L]

One of my dreams for us here in Scotland is to have a network of queen mating stations much like you do in Bavaria.

Never knew much about this, but seeing the rise and rise in sponsorship for this project, and others (link below) then maybe this crowd funding would be a way of raising the funds for just such a series of well organized mating stations throughout the UK (and everything that is needed) for AMM bee breeding, with the resources and backup to make the whole thing sustainable in the future.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/flow-hive-honey-on-tap-directly-from-your-beehive#comments

[gavin]

Never knew much about this, but seeing the rise and rise in sponsorship for this project, and others (link below) then maybe this crowd funding would be a way of raising the funds for just such a series of well organized mating stations throughout the UK (and everything that is needed) for AMM bee breeding, with the resources and backup to make the whole thing sustainable in the future.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/flow-hive-honey-on-tap-directly-from-your-beehive#comments

I see it all now. Apideas with big red buttons on the top that cause the device inside to issue a special vibration command that causes the queen with a few attendents to march into a queen cage, ready for collection by the passing apiarist. The drone producing colonies around the mating station fitted with supers that don't just have sliding split-cell plastic comb but comb that shuggles up and down to get that heather honey flowing. The future is bright.

We'd need to employ someone young and fit to promote this. See comments like these:

'You guys are so sweet in your video. Love your work.'

One for GreenGumbo I suspect.

Pete, I suspect that you were being serious. Maybe you are right. But I'd be uncomfortable fleecing the public. $2.3m already? Good grief! There are enough dodgy beekeeping enterprises already in Scotland making outlandish promises to get funding of one kind or another.

[Poly Hive]

I was saying after my trip to Germany some 20 odd years ago that we had and of course still have more than enough places for isolated mating. Islands galore, NW Highlands... borders... "Just" needs the will to get it going.

Whaty I drooled over though was the Institute we visited. Staffed by proper scientists, money seemingly no object and real research being done. On the behalf of the regions beekeepers. It was jaw dropping.

PH

[mbc]

Whaty I drooled over though was the Institute we visited. Staffed by proper scientists, money seemingly no object and real research being done. On the behalf of the regions beekeepers. It was jaw dropping.

PH

It is distressing that our emphasis seems to be sucking any European monies available for bees for funding existing enforcement officers instead of public support for beekeepers on the ground.

[Jon]

Whaty I drooled over though was the Institute we visited. Staffed by proper scientists, money seemingly no object and real research being done. On the behalf of the regions beekeepers. It was jaw dropping.
PH

I was on holiday in Tenerife in December and I managed to blag my way into the bee institute on the island. They jar some of the honey there, check for pests and diseases and generally act like a quality control and regulatory body. They have a certification system re the origin of the honey. I had an interesting half hour chat with the director and they have a parallel situation re the Tenerife native bee which is a black bee closely related to Apis Mellifera Iberensis. Most on the island want to preserve and promote their native bee but there are a few who insist on using Buckfast, Ligustica or Cárnica. There are 16,000 colonies on the island which is an incredible density given its size, barely half the size of N. Ireland. They set up a breeding project on one of the smaller Canary islands, Gomera but it was wrecked by a few beekeepers who did not care about any conservation programme. He highlighted that one of the problems was the big expat population on Tenerife. The German expats in particular want to keep the bees they are familiar with, either Buckfast or Carnica and have little or no consideration for any local conservation efforts. The director of the institute had all but given up given the animosity generated in some quarters. There is quite a bit of this in Ireland as well re. our native bee. The expat Buckfast fans argue that Buckfast is a superior product when compared to our local stock. That is debatable but even if there is a marginal gain in yield under favourable conditions we are likely to have our native stock hybridised. The isolated mating station idea is crucial because the commercial guys will continue to import queens and bees if it is 10% cheaper to do that than it is to produce queens and packages locally. Linked to the isolated mating stations you need to get people working in groups and groups in the same area sharing and swapping queens.

[greengumbo]

I was saying after my trip to Germany some 20 odd years ago that we had and of course still have more than enough places for isolated mating. Islands galore, NW Highlands... borders... "Just" needs the will to get it going.

Whaty I drooled over though was the Institute we visited. Staffed by proper scientists, money seemingly no object and real research being done. On the behalf of the regions beekeepers. It was jaw dropping.

PH

Was the institute this one PH ? https://www2.hu-berlin.de/bienenkunde/index.php?id=1

I had a visit recently and their new honey extracting equipment and buildings were amazing. They fund research by selling the honey from their research hives (500+).

Nice newly converted hotel they use as well.

[greengumbo]

We'd need to employ someone young and fit to promote this. See comments like these:

'You guys are so sweet in your video. Love your work.'

One for GreenGumbo I suspect.


Young ? Hardly ! Fit ? Even less accurate !!! ;)

[prakel]

Never knew much about this, but seeing the rise and rise in sponsorship for this project, and others (link below) then maybe this crowd funding would be a way of raising the funds for just such a series of well organized mating stations throughout the UK (and everything that is needed) for AMM bee breeding

Somewhat smaller scale but.....

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.biobees.com%2Fblackbees&ei=g8DtVOayL4WyUbvDgbAO&usg=AFQjCNFor6yiKfTQhsCC8dK2bkUkYlY8hA&sig2=GrDuG3nV453Rf9YWf60xYw&bvm=bv.86956481,d.d24

[Pete L]

Pete, I suspect that you were being serious. Maybe you are right. But I'd be uncomfortable fleecing the public. $2.3m already? Good grief! There are enough dodgy beekeeping enterprises already in Scotland making outlandish promises to get funding of one kind or another.

Lol...yes i was being serious, would not be forcing anyone to donate to the cause, which would be a good one, and one that would work, and the "perks" as they seem to call them would be available in year two.

[drumgerry]

Looks like the crowd funding idea has found someone to take it on. Only problem is - it's Phil Chandler!

http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/devon-british-black-bee-project/

Edit - OMG just read what you get for your money. £25 gets you the privilege of naming a queen. FFS he's got to be joking!

[Jon]

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