winter dysentery?

[Bridget]

Had a very quick peek the other day to check on the fondant situation. Still plenty left but my Nuc was covered with poo inside. Some of the bees from the hives have been out recently but I've not seen the nuc bees out for ages. Today it got a bit warmer (8 degrees) so I opened the entrance to the nuc fully with the sun on it and they began coming out and a few flying around. No sign of poo in the other hives. Do you think it's just from not getting out and about? Can I treat them with anything? I shan't be able to give the nuc a tidy up in this weather.
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[drumgerry]

Not sure if there's anything you can really do at this time of year Bridget. In days gone by a preventative of Fumidil B (an antibiotic) was given in the autumn. Dysentery can be a symptom of nosema - if they don't build up in Spring this might be your smoking gun. And some would say that overwintering a colony with heather honey stores can give rise to dysentery but none of mine seem the worse for wear for having a few brood frames of heather honey. If you can get them to Spring you can put them on to clean kit and foundation/combs and clean and sterilise the soiled stuff.

Ps - I think the heather honey thing is due to it having a higher water content than ordinary blossom honey

[Bridget]

Thanks Gerry, Their stores will be a mixture I think as I don't seem to get enough to warrant calling it heather honey. But it's the same every year and anyway I expect it's mainly fondant their eating now. I'll be watching for nosema.
BTW when do yours start laying eggs again? Approximately? I realise it will be different for cold and warmer areas but I had presumed it was April and now realise that it's probably earlier.


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[drumgerry]

Much earlier than April Bridget. I think it's generally considered that the queen will start to lay again in late winter at the centre of the cluster. But I've never opened them up at this time to check of course. Late winter for you and me I guess might be around now-ish.

[Bridget]

Reading this months bee magazine I see that when Alan Riach recovered his damaged hives from under a tree he found a 7cm diameter of sealed and unsealed brood. That's the answer for Edinburgh then!


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[Bridget]

I can see that my bees are still uncapping stores (as well as eating the fondant) from putting white paper on the inspection board. I will have to learn the difference between the debris from stores and the debris from capped brood.


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[HJBee]

Found this link on Twitter, it's from America, hence the word poop is used a lot but thought it was quite good for average person, probably has nothing new for the seasoned beekeepers on the forum
https://bees4communities.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/honey-bee-poop-yellow-snow-in-the-bee-yard/

[mbc]

Found this link on Twitter, it's from America, hence the word poop is used a lot but thought it was quite good for average person, probably has nothing new for the seasoned beekeepers on the forum
https://bees4communities.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/honey-bee-poop-yellow-snow-in-the-bee-yard/

Yeah, that lost me at the point it made out protein patties encouraged brood rearing due to the warmth of the fermenting Pattie.

[Poly Hive]

Mobus did a fair bit of mid winter research and it is not at all uncommon to have brooding in mid winter. Mainly as I understand it to reduce water in the environment. Re the nuc are they insulated?

The Mobus papers are on my site and very widely read too. http://poly-hive.co.uk/recourses/mobus-bernard-his-work-on-swarming-and-wintering/

PH

[Bridget]

"Colonies smaller than optimum size and we all had our doubts about some stocks, even nuclei, at the start of a winter, will have more bees in the cold, outer shell, all making great efforts to stay alive by converting honey into heat-and accumulating more and more ‘waste water’ within the totality of the cluster. The centre being small, no movements in or out of the cluster centre can cope with the situation and, only cleansing flights can theoretically bring relief. When these are not possible, it seems that dysenteric conditions must come about, forcing bees to defecate in the hive, on combs."
I nteresting Polyhive -that could give me my answer as it is a small nucleus with a late Queen and not been seen out when the other bees were flying. It is a poly nuc so insulated. Thanks for the interesting link.


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[Adam]

Isn't heather honey a problem due to the protein in it rather than the water content?
And a strong thymol syrup (Hivemakers recipie) is good for nosema....

[Bridget]

An update on this nucleus as weather allowed a full inspection today. The floor of the hive was covered with dead bees and chalk brood mummies. Tw of the outside frames were disgusting (one with what looks like poop in the frames) so have both been burnt and a frame of stores from another hive added, along with an empty frame. Queen was in evidence but no brood and very little stores and they were well into the fondant. If I had had another nucleus I would have put them in a clean one, will get one this week. So they are looking a little fragile inside, though flying strongly outside and bringing in pollen. Photos are of the two outside frames. Dead bees were mainly head up. Would these pics help confirm nosema?.
22272228

[drumgerry]

Bridget the only way to be certain of nosema is using microscopy. 2nd frame doesn't look too bad apart from a little mouldy pollen.

[Bridget]

No Drumgerry, moldy pollen is in fact chalk brood and the rest of that frame looks like poo.

[gavin]

Do you have a close-up of that second frame? Don't think it will be faeces, at least not bee faeces!

[drumgerry]

Ah well it is quite hard to tell what's going on from photos taken from a distance. Mouldy pollen can have that white look as well sometimes I've found. Not seeing the poo - the wood itself looks quite clean.

[Bridget]

Ive done close ups of both frames - hopefully you can see clearer. The wood is a lot cleaner than the inner frames Gerry which have faeces all over the top. In the other frame there is some yellow stuff at the bottom22292230, that looks like melted wax. Looks creamy coloured in the photo.

[Jon]

What is the mite level in that colony? The second photo with the fully formed bees failing to emerge from cells is quite characteristic of PMS.

[Bridget]

I will check the mite drop but it was very little in the autumn when treated and given OA trickle in January. This nuc had a lot of dead bees and mummies all over the floor yesterday which I cleared out - far too many for the bees to manage to clear themselves. Sorry Jon, can't remember what PMS is.

[Jon]

Parasitic mite syndrome.
Maybe an excess of chalk brood is part of the problem as well.

[gavin]

OK, the spotting. It indicates that the bees were stressed - could be Nosema but equally a number of other issues cause it. I just see a few spots on these frames. The mouldy cells in the cleaner comb are, as Gerry suggested, mouldy pollen. It goes that way when unattended and it is in the position on the frame you'd expect to find pollen. Beyond that area I think you just have partially drawn foundation.

The nasty stuff at the foot of the muckier frame needs further investigation. At the very least you have a lot of brood that got chilled when it was being raised in the autumn due to insufficient bees covering frames and which wasn't able to emerge. Could have been Varroa last autumn when that brood was being raised as Jon suggested but there are many ways this could come about. If it wasn't at this peripheral site on the comb I'd be worried about foulbrood (and still am to a degree) with all those discoloured variable cappings and that patchy pattern.

Next time you have frames of that colony to look at, check carefully for scale in the cells in the brood area. Something dried down and glued firmly to the lower part of the cell may be AFB, a loose scale might be EFB, or sacbrood, or perhaps just dried down dead larvae that had been abandoned. Worth a closer look, but most likely all down to insufficient bee power for some other reason when that brood was being raised last autumn. I'd also pick off cappings to see what's underneath.

[gavin]

Strong colonies manage to clear out their winter dead and the chalkbrood fairly well. Weaker ones, not so much.

[Bridget]

Thanks Gavin. I think chilled brood is one reason - I see from my notes of last September that I gave the nuc a frame of brood when I made it up and a few days later noted that I thought the nuc was being robbed as bees were coming out with larvae. Then a couple of days later I checked the nuc and noted that it was probably not robbing but that there were insufficiant bees to keep the brood warm and they had died and were being cleared out.
I am going to give them a clean NUC this week and I will check again for disease as you say.