Planning next year - Checkerboarding

[Castor]

Next year my wife and I we are going to do everything right, :cool: and our bees will, of course, be complying with this.

In order to ensure that the bees are quite clear about their role, I intend to employ Mr Walt Wright's method of Nectar Management or "Checkerboarding", referenced at Beesource Here (http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/). and neatly condensed on Michael Bush's site Here (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesexperiment.htm#question)

So, respected Team, - has anyone here experience of this technique in a British context? It seems that timing could well be everything and translating the start of apple blossom time in Tennessee to rural Gloucestershire may not be that simple.....


Annnnnnddd a way of working it in with some queen rearing is also under Deep Thought.

[mbc]

Why bother? With our propensity for stop start flows you're likely to set the bees back rather than help them or delay swarming, unless sunny Ebley has much more assured flows than further west.

[prakel]

Next year my wife and I we are going to do everything right, :cool: and our bees will, of course, be complying with this.

In order to ensure that the bees are quite clear about their role, I intend to employ Mr Walt Wright's method of Nectar Management or "Checkerboarding"

In which case they won't be taking part in your checkerboarding experiment :).

[Castor]

OK..... so that's two "it's a stupid idea" - not that I'm really clear why...

Have we any on the positive side?

[mbc]

Different bees, different location, it may work for you, suck it and see as they say.

[gavin]

The key to any operation that encourages bees to draw more comb is the state of the colony. Ted Hooper wrote about 'brood spreading' - shuffling brood nest frames to make an irregular outline that the bees would then try to change to maintain an oval shape. This is during the spring build-up when the colony is struggling to cope (a strong drive to build up yet insufficient bees to draw comb and feed and keep everything warm), and most people who tried it didn't think it was good for the bees.

Later in the year, with lots of young bees in the colony, they will drawn foundation happily. Sticking in a frame of foundation helps a burgeoning colony delay swarm preparations. A late summer colony filling its space with stores and with a lot of recently emerged bees is in a good position to draw worker comb, as long as there is forage or feed.

These are just normal practices, to be used carefully after judging the state of the colony and of its forage. I wouldn't do anything more drastic in UK conditions where colonies are usually less strong and flows less dramatic.

[mbc]

The key to any operation that encourages bees to draw more comb is the state of the colony. Ted Hooper wrote about 'brood spreading' - shuffling brood nest frames to make an irregular outline that the bees would then try to change to maintain an oval shape. This is during the spring build-up when the colony is struggling to cope (a strong drive to build up yet insufficient bees to draw comb and feed and keep everything warm), and most people who tried it didn't think it was good for the bees.

Later in the year, with lots of young bees in the colony, they will drawn foundation happily. Sticking in a frame of foundation helps a burgeoning colony delay swarm preparations. A late summer colony filling its space with stores and with a lot of recently emerged bees is in a good position to draw worker comb, as long as there is forage or feed.

These are just normal practices, to be used carefully after judging the state of the colony and of its forage. I wouldn't do anything more drastic in UK conditions where colonies are usually less strong and flows less dramatic.

Spot on

[prakel]

OK..... so that's two "it's a stupid idea"

Not really what I was saying, the little smiley face could have been a give away, but wasn't. After trying out more 'methods' than I care to think about over recent years I've soundly come back to the conclusion that it's best to keep everything tight and let them expand at their own rate. Checkerboarding is different to the brood spreading methods of course (or, it should be, as far as I understand it) but I remain doubtful of any early season method that's attempting to push the bees towards extending the broodnest (irrespective of whether it's actually an illusion or not). I'm happy to let others get on with 'working the broodnest' in whatever form they like but I've come to the conclusion that it's not for me,

[Castor]

Not really what I was saying, the little smiley face could have been a give away, but wasn't.

Notoriously difficult on the net. :mad:


After trying out more 'methods' than I care to think about over recent years I've soundly come back to the conclusion that it's best to keep everything tight and let them expand at their own rate.

Noted and appreciated - the bees probably know best.
That doesn't stop me wanting to fiddle though........

[Jon]

Dropping a frame of foundation or drawn comb into the centre of the brood nest of a strong colony is a reasonable way to expand the nest. I sometimes do this to get larvae of the right age for grafting by placing a drawn comb in the centre of the brood nest and removing it 4 days later. I imagine checkerboarding could lead to a lot of chilled brood if the weather turned suddenly.

[GRIZZLY]

Seems to be a practice in the southern states where they complain of the cold if the ambient temperature drops belof 25 def F - see "fat bee man" on utube videos. I would be very dubious in the UK.

[prakel]

In order to ensure that the bees are quite clear about their role, I intend to employ Mr Walt Wright's method of Nectar Management

Castor, in light of some other posts can I ask whether you actually plan to break the brood nest as sometimes discussed as checkerboarding, or, are you planning on opening the store frames directly above the brood in the hope of drawing the queen up into fresh combs?

[Castor]

I'm planning on breaking the nectar/honey ceiling above the brood to stave off swarming. I had no plans to break the brood nest as such - merely to give it a direction in which to expand should it wish, and (hopefully) to thwart or at least manage to some extent the colony's swarming instinct. My understanding is that this should not compromise the broods thermal management more than very slightly.

It seems that there are many interpretations of what "checkerboarding" means; - this seems to be why Walt Wright refers to 'Nectar Management' instead. As I said in my opening gambit, it seems that the timing is everything.

Much more understanding to do on my part.....


I should never have let my wife get these ruddy bees........

[Castor]

*This* is what I mean by checkerboarding, nicely crystallised :-

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-to-checkerboard-a-hive/
&
http://www.honeybeesuite.com/checkerboarding-the-x-files-of-beekeeping/

The principal things are that there is no invasion of the brood nest, and that the reconfiguration of the nectar dome above the brood is claimed to deter or defer swarming.

Anyhow I'm going to give this something of an experimental punt next year - we shall see.

Any proposals or suggestions on timing gratefully received!

[prakel]

I'm planning on breaking the nectar/honey ceiling above the brood to stave off swarming. I had no plans to break the brood nest as such - merely to give it a direction in which to expand should it wish, and (hopefully) to thwart or at least manage to some extent the colony's swarming instinct. My understanding is that this should not compromise the broods thermal management more than very slightly.

It seems that there are many interpretations of what "checkerboarding" means; - this seems to be why Walt Wright refers to 'Nectar Management' instead. As I said in my opening gambit, it seems that the timing is everything.

Much more understanding to do on my part.....


I should never have let my wife get these ruddy bees........

That's what I assumed you meant but I did start to question myself after reading so many comments about opening the brood. There was recently a thread on beesource where an argument for 'pollen management' was put forward, I don't entirely buy it myself as I use a very different kind of brood chamber to that preferred by the writer but there were some valid points offered if you care to seek out the thread and read what the guy wrote.

Mention of "the broods thermal management" is, for me, like someone switching the light off; you're going to start sounding like one of the extreme-insulator gang if you keep using that kind of language :)

By getting those 'ruddy bees' your wife probably saved you from some other odd hobby like mma or bjj, so be thankful!

[Adam]

I'm not convinced that Hooper's spreading of the brood in spring is particularly helpful - as bees will expand the nest quite happily themselves at this time of year (spring) in any case and there's the worry of a cold spell.
I have added a frame of foundation in the middle of the brood-nest when there are PLENTY of bees and the weather is good; it will get drawn and filled with eggs quickly in this case. It's a way of taking a frame from a strong hive for a nuc or another purpose in order to keep the numbers down in the vain hope that it will stop/delay swarming.

What I have also done is to do a little manipulation when adding a second brood chamber. I generally move, say, 3 frames of brood to the top (new) brood box and interleave with foundation. So the colony gets more space in two ways; firstly by opening the brood-nest where the foundation is above the warm brood and also giving them an 'oval' brood-nest in the middle of two boxes with foundation/comb/stores around it so they have plenty of room to play in. By the time you have a big colony with say, 10 frames of brood, they need to feel that they are not constricted.. That's the thought anyway.

[Castor]

Mention of "the broods thermal management" is, for me, like someone switching the light off; you're going to start sounding like one of the extreme-insulator gang if you keep using that kind of language :)

Many a long moon ago I worked for Matra-Marconi and had a very small part of the task of calculating the attitude control and thermal management regime for the Rosetta craft which has been hitting the headlines of late, so of course I'm going to see the bees as having a thermal management regime. I can't help thinking like that - it's like a disease.....

......So we need to know the heat output per heater bee, the number of heater bees and the thermal transmissivity from bee to the hive environment & the ambient temperature.....
Then we need respiration products of the colony and the appropriate psychrometric tables......

Then we should locate the bees in a hollow tree where they belong.



By getting those 'ruddy bees' your wife probably saved you from some other odd hobby like mma or bjj, so be thankful!

I think there are many similarities between some styles of beekeeping and these disciplines.


Signed
Castor. 4th Dan drone wrangling.

[Castor]

.....in the vain hope that it will stop/delay swarming.


In my world, anything to do with bees seems to have "vain hope" attached to it.

[prakel]

Then we should locate the bees in a hollow tree where they belong.

I wish that all those stray swarms from somewhere over the hedge were aware of where they belong, rather than consistently occupying empty wooden hives waiting to be used elsewhere.

[Poly Hive]

Two things.

If it works well in the US it is unlikely to work well here. Why? Weather. Instance. I hefted a skep in Ontario in late Sept, was informed by the Bee Farmer it was started with a cup of bees and a virgin in June. Weight? 112 pounds, temp?? 28C.

2nd. I have practised brood spreading for over thirty years, as has Struan Apiaries for many more than I, and we both learned it from B. Mobus. In the right hands it works very well indeed BUT not for novices as they cannot read the colony, that comes with a few years of experience.

I remember years ago that a very intelligent guy, top cat on the Edinburgh gold mission, "spread the brood" with a couple of frames of sealed brood at each end of a poly hive and a half dozen foundation between... ho hum which is why I have argued with myself for years about doing a video on it over the Spring for fear people do more harm than good. And if done right it really does move a colony on, by on average a frame of brood a week until at 7-8 frames they jump two a week, and at 9-10 I give them another brood chamber beneath and let them get on with it.

PH

[mbc]

.... if done right it really does move a colony on, by on average a frame of brood a week until at 7-8 frames they jump two a week, and at 9-10 I give them another brood chamber beneath and let them get on with it.

PH

We went through this some time ago on the other place. If you're going to make these claims it would be better to have statistical evidence from controlled trials, otherwise it's just hearsay.
FWIW I believe that it is possible to increase the appearance of a colony, but performance will subsequently dip as the reality of the empty increase hits home as the shorter lived bees produced die off quicker without being very productive. Of course, this is also guesswork and hearsay, but if I remember correctly, Tauts did do some proper work that showed bees raised under suboptimal conditions had short and ineffective(with regard to benefit to the colony) lifespans.

[Poly Hive]

Why not try it mbc? It's worked for me for donkeys years, and for Struan who run some 750 boxes. They for sure don't do it for fun and nor do I for that matter. Again what I mean by brood spreading might not be what you think it is?

As for hearsay well that puts Manley et all in the same group does it not as all their writing was based on personal experience. Not all info can be gained from double blind drug trial type experiments. After reading about the colony model that some geek has produced the next thing will be well you can't do that as the model says... Aye well I hae ma doots ya ken.

PH

[mbc]

Why not try it mbc? It's worked for me for donkeys years,

PH

I gave it a fair crack as Ted Hooper seemed to advocate a bit of brood spreading in the spring, and I had a lot of time for his writing, however, it fell by the wayside many years ago for my continuing bee management practices as I couldn't see any benefit by the end of the season compared to colonies left un-meddled with in this way.
Perhaps I didn't posses the skill and fine judgement necessary to outdo the bees in deciding how best to configure their nest at a time when they were already trying to push it to the max. Maybe your judgement is better than mine PH, or possibly your bees less capable, but for my bees in my area under my management I found brood spreading a complete waste of time and effort more likely to do harm to the colony than good.

[Jon]

Other than introducing drone comb at the edge of the cluster when the cluster is big enough in Spring - - with a view to subsequent queen rearing I would also leave alone.

[mbc]

I like to leave them a gap to build drone comb, I do this by cutting off the bottom half of comb from some frames. I think the action of building drone comb helps alleviate swarming and it ensures my drones are raised in fresh, uncontaminated wax (.. they're more likely to be fertile) and it satisfies the bees desire to build some drone comb so other areas of worker foundation is more likely to be drawn correctly. If I'm rushing to get through a pile of colonies these frames(with a previously marked topbar) are good ones to pull to give a quick read of the colony.

[Jon]

That would work well. Must give it a try.

[Castor]

Having kicked off this thread a while back, this discussion now seems to be about something very different to what I understood Walt Wright's technique to be which is essentially disrupting the nectar ceiling of the colony in order to manipulate the urge to swarm - not this brood spreading thing.
I've tried discussing this locally as well, calling it "nectar management" rather than "checkerboarding"and immediately the discussion turns to "brood spreading". I don't understand why!

From http://www.honeybeesuite.com/checkerboarding-the-x-files-of-beekeeping/

"Many misconceptions surround checkerboarding. The most common one is that it interferes with the brood nest. It does not. Checkerboarding is performed in the honey storage areas above the brood nest, not in the brood rearing areas, so it is an excellent and non-invasive swarm management technique".

[mbc]

I think checkerboarding is alien to most UK beekeepers because we don't tend to have our bees arranged with the nest in one box and another box full of honey above them conveniently waiting to be fiddled with.

[Mellifera Crofter]

I thought that's what most people do do in the UK, MBC - they separate the honey from the brood and queen with a queen excluder.

I don't use a queen excluder, so I do manipulate the honey frames to some extent - but mainly in an attempt to stop the queen from moving higher up in the hive - not as described by Castor, although I do keep it in mind sometimes. (But I've only kept bees for five years - I still need to learn a lot.)
Kitta

[Castor]

Well we are going to give this a go this year with a few hives - probably six - and see how we go. With the weather and it's weirdness over the past couple of years it's going to be interesting spotting the start of the build-up, which appears to be key.

[Bumble]

*This* is what I mean by checkerboarding, nicely crystallised :-

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-to-checkerboard-a-hive/
&
http://www.honeybeesuite.com/checkerboarding-the-x-files-of-beekeeping/

The principal things are that there is no invasion of the brood nest, and that the reconfiguration of the nectar dome above the brood is claimed to deter or defer swarming.Having kicked off this thread a while back, this discussion now seems to be about something very different to what I understood Walt Wright's technique to be which is essentially disrupting the nectar ceiling of the colony in order to manipulate the urge to swarm - not this brood spreading thing.
I've tried discussing this locally as well, calling it "nectar management" rather than "checkerboarding"and immediately the discussion turns to "brood spreading". I don't understand why!

From http://www.honeybeesuite.com/checkerboarding-the-x-files-of-beekeeping/

"Many misconceptions surround checkerboarding. The most common one is that it interferes with the brood nest. It does not. Checkerboarding is performed in the honey storage areas above the brood nest, not in the brood rearing areas, so it is an excellent and non-invasive swarm management technique".

I've used this since I started beekeeping so I can't say whether the alternative, not checkerboarding, works as well or not. I think the bees like it because they never have that solid honey arc above their heads and they always have somewhere close to the brood nest to put their stores. They do, though, seem to prefer to use the more central frames than the outer ones.

I don't know if, as honeybeesuite suggests, it reduces swarming impulse or not.

I don't meddle with the brood nest by spreading the brood because, although I did try it once, I found it set that colony back when compared with others.

[Castor]

I've used this since I started beekeeping

It sounds to me like you've always been "nectar managing"..... or chequerboarding .....

I wish we could talk to the little devils.....

[Bumble]

I wish we could talk to the little devils.....
I do, but they don't answer! :D

[mbc]

I do, but they don't answer! :D

Same here, I also sing to mine sometimes, apparently they cannot hear us, but if talking or singing keeps you calm then you're less likely to provoke them to stinging you so it's still a good thing.

[Castor]

I shout at mine.
It's probably just as well that they can't hear.....