Extra insulation

[The Drone Ranger]

I dont add any insulation to my Smith hives other than making sure the roof is in good condition
How about everyone else ?

[nemphlar]

I'm just tucking mine in today, removed the queen excluders put the clearer boards back on with a linen cover then pack the super with old duvet's. I like the idea that the space above bees can breath without causing a draft or condensation. Come the spring and hopefully breeding in full swing the top cover can be removed and dried preventing dampness. I've mixture of poly and cedar smiths

[Little_John]

I'm in a much kinder climate than many on here, but I've settled for about 3" of expanded polysytrene over the crown boards of my Nationals and Long Hives. But - that's only because I've got a shed full of the stuff. If I'd had to buy it, then I'd be using just a couple of old hessian potato sacks instead.

LJ

[brecks]

Mine are all polyhives but I give them 2cm or 5cm extra Celotex insulation on top, depending on the type of hive. They all are very strong after winter.

[Bumble]

The trend here in the warmer south, especially amongst the more inquisitive beekeepers, seems to be to ignore Wedmore and add a layer of top insulation. Some of the old boys think it's funny because they drill big holes in their crownboards, then lift them on matchsticks every winter to make sure their bees to live in a wind tunnel.

Mine are poly hives, with closed crown boards and thick top insulation.

[mbc]

Wood hives with a 25mm slab of kingspan under the roof for me, I'm still not convinced it helps with overwintering but it sure helps get the bees up into the first supers in spring.

[Rosie]

I go for wooden hives with mesh floors fully open and the crown board insulated.

[fatshark]

Here in the sunny Midlands I use 50mm of Kingspan or equivalent all year. No matchsticks, no holes in the crownboard, OMF's and cedar hives ... and no problems with condensation (many of my crownboards are Perspex so it's easy to see this if present). I've not done a meaningful side by side comparison with or without insulation, but am satisfied with the way they overwinter and build up in Spring.

[HJBee]

I go for wooden hives with mesh floors fully open and the crown board insulated.

Same here, I do use the Thornes insulation quilts, though have found and cut some packing foam to the same size for future colonies (I get ribbed for my posh quilts around here). Just put on the smaller colonies this week with the change of temp.

[Little_John]

I couldn't operate without holes in the crown board - to give 'em syrup, fondant, even pollen subs without cracking open the hive ... it's easy enough to tape a film of plastic over during wnter - yet another use for Tesco's ice-cream cartons ... :)

LJ
("Put it in the trolley dear, I need another carton ...")

[lindsay s]

Cedar Smith hives with wooden floors and entrance blocks. I’ve tried open mesh floors but couldn’t see any improvements so I switched back to wood (nine expensive OMF’s are now gathering dust).
On top of the brood chamber wooden crown board with mesh over the holes and an empty super plus roof. The mesh is to stop the bees having access above the crown board and the empty super gives the damp air somewhere to gather before venting out through the roof. If the bees are bothered by the draught or loosing heat then they can seal up the mesh but mine don’t. This method has worked well for me for over 30 years because winters up here tend to be long cold and damp rather than cold and dry.


Some of the old boys think it's funny because they drill big holes in their crownboards, then lift them on matchsticks every winter to make sure their bees to live in a wind tunnel.
I’ve just been reading Principles of Practical Beekeeping by Robert Couston.
Included in chapter V on wintering he mentions lifting the crown board on match sticks, leaving the feed holes in crown boards open and in colonies prone to dampness over wintering with an empty super directly on top of the brood chamber. Before you all throw your hands up in horror I’m not anti-insulation but the whole chapter steers towards ventilation rather than insulation and although it was written over 40 years ago I tend to agree with him.

[The Drone Ranger]

The Bob Couston book is a good one Lindsay if you live in Scotland especially the east coast

I have enough room in the roof for a small rapid feeder over the hole in the crown board
I usually put a nice clean feeder on empty to catch the condensation during winter
I'm beginning to wonder if I should be insulating the space instead as it might be better for the bees

Its reasurring to know I am not the only beek with no top insulation though :)

A bit of advice would be welcome on the Paynes Poly nucs
The old ones had no perspex crown board so it didn't arise
The new ones do have this thin perspex and I wonder if it needs to come out for overwintering nucs ?
Although I was a bit sceptical several nucs overwintered well in the old style last Winter (it was mild though)
Anyone have thoughts or experience of surviving bad winters in Poly nucs ?

[Rosie]

I’ve just been reading Principles of Practical Beekeeping by Robert Couston.
Included in chapter V on wintering he mentions lifting the crown board on match sticks, leaving the feed holes in crown boards open and in colonies prone to dampness over wintering with an empty super directly on top of the brood chamber. Before you all throw your hands up in horror I’m not anti-insulation but the whole chapter steers towards ventilation rather than insulation and although it was written over 40 years ago I tend to agree with him.

So do I but when Couston wrote that, OMFs were a rarity. I would guess that if he wrote it today he might well believe that ventilation through the floor was as good or better than a through draught pouring out of the top. My thinking is that with an open floor it would be easy for the bees to control the convection current through the cluster merely by tightening up or loosening their huddle.

[fatshark]

Hi DR
I've overwintered in the Paynes poly nucs with a 2mm perspex sheet as a crownboard. No problems, though the roof is very thin - frost melts above the cluster. I built insulated ekes to take a lump of fondant a few years ago which worked well.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks fatshark I will just leave the perspex in then.
They sell an eke for £10 I see which might allow room for a bit more insulation ?

[Bumble]

I've overwintered Modern Beekeeping nucs, which have quite a thin roof, using just a sheet of polythene as a crown board. This year they're getting a kingspan hat above (over and around) the roof, although they probably don't need it.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thanks fatshark I will just leave the perspex in then.
They sell an eke for £10 I see which might allow room for a bit more insulation ?
DR, I use that eke all year round with insulation - in fact, all my hives has a shallow as an eke with insulation all year. In my case, offcuts from slabs of wool insulation. They fit easily over feeders and stay nice and dry apart from around the edges where the wool touches the roof or walls (and that varies from hive to hive).

Downside of using wool in the summer is getting woolly fingers - so I change gloves often and have a damp cloth handy.
Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks kitta
I think the wool loft insulation might be cheaper than Celotex especially if I just "borrow" some from the loft :)

[crabbitdave]

Hi all I've stopped insulating the roof of my hives, I tried it with and without and seams to make no difference, I've found they need more ventilation not Insulation and my apiary well above 600 ft so we get snow most years [emoji1]


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[Neils]

I just cover the hole in the crown board with a block of fondant and leave them to it.

[The Drone Ranger]

Now I am undecided !!
I might insulate the polynucs and carry on as normal with the rest [emoji124]

[prakel]

As this is the Scottish beekeeping forum it seems appropriate to mention that John Barrington wrote in 'Red Sky at Night' (1984) about using oven dried sphagnum moss sandwiched between two sheets of mesh with (I think, from memory) the crown board on top.

edit: having had chance to check the book, he says that the moss is sandwiched between a sheet of mesh and a piece of ply.

[prakel]

Here in the balmy South I've got wooden hives with both solid and open-holed crown boards, John Rawson suggested that I leave them open to February/March and then cover them to help Spring build up but I'm rarely organised enough to get them covered -maybe next Spring. I've also got an increasing number of hives and all of our nucs fitted with a sheet of kingspan instead of crown-board and roof, just so much cheaper and simpler. Might not look very pretty put it's very efficient. I've never really been able to see a real difference between any of these configurations based on 'end of year results' which are what I judge my bumbling attempts at beekeeping on. The one exception is seen in the nucs, there's no question that they definitely benefit from the top insulation hence they're all treated that way now.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Now I am undecided !!
I might insulate the polynucs and carry on as normal with the rest [emoji124]

I think, definitely insulate the polynuc, DR, and I think the bees can only be happier if you insulate the rest as well - but not with something that gets soggy.

I wonder how HJBee is getting on with Thornes spongy quilts (post #9). They got soggy when I used them - but maybe that had something to do with my hives' set-up.

Kitta

[crabbitdave]

You never hear of bees dying of the cold but you do of starvation, I think it's us worrying about a problem that isn't there, if your bees get damp from lack of ventilation the water evaporating of their bodies will make them cold, but as I always say do what works for you [emoji4]


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[chris]

As Mellifera Crofter, I use insulation all year round.I put fleece in a rubbish bag and stuff it in an eek over the crown board. Harsh winter cold and very hot sun in summer. Also, a variation of 20° c between max and min is the norm over 24 hours. So it gives the bees a little less work. I think methods used must be dictated by the climate.
I would also venture (if Jon is not looking) that sometimes bees know best. On my Warré, I have a plastic mosquito net laying on top of the frames and a box with a sack base, filled with sawdust sitting on the netting. The net has been propolised between the alleys. The bees depropolise it and repropolise it as their needs for through ventilation vary.

[Jon]

I am looking!
Bees sometimes (but not always) know best.
I found a supersedure queen laying yesterday, one which had only emerged on 18th September so she was cutting it fine.
I still don't understand why several colonies had big slabs of drone brood a couple of weeks ago.
If they know best it must be to unleash them into a mating window some time around mid October and that does not look likely.

[The Drone Ranger]

they have caught a whiff of that marking cage andthose drones will all be heading your way as soon as they can fly

[HJBee]

I wonder how HJBee is getting on with Thornes spongy quilts (post #9). They got soggy when I used them - but maybe that had something to do with my hives' set-up.

Kitta

Hi Kitta

This is my 3rd year of using these, not had a soggy quilt problem yet, but the way this year has gone, who knows!

HJ

[Mellifera Crofter]

It must be my set-up then, HJ. All my hives are polystyrene, and I've made inner crown boards for most of them. There are small gaps around the edges so some of the bees' vapour must get into the eke. Wool can cope with that - but not the sponges.
Kitta