What happens next? The Bees probably know but they're not telling...

[SueBee]

Last week I had a busy hive with a queen with clipped wings (my first bees, a nucleus bought last year). Today I find queen gone, a new (and so far virgin I think) queen and the hive stuffed with bees.
I'm worried, should I make an artificial swarm with the new queen, or wait until she has mated, or just leave them to get on with it? :confused:
She certainly won't be lacking in mates - plenty of drones about.

I have a spare hive ready just in case...

Sue

[Jon]

I'm worried, should I make an artificial swarm with the new queen, or wait until she has mated, or just leave them to get on with it? :confused:
Sue

Hi Sue.
The idea of an artificial swarm is usually to prevent swarming and yours probably swarmed over a week ago. Fortunately your queen was clipped so you only lost the queen rather than half the bees.
Did you see the queen with clipped wings last week and if not when was the last time that you saw her?
Have you been checking weekly?
What was the situation re. queen cells. If there are still sealed queen cells in the box and it is packed with bees, you will almost certainly lose a swarm headed by one of the virgin queens which hatches.
If there are more queen cells, I would remove them but make sure there is still a virgin in the box. Easy to say but they can be hard to find.
If you want to make two colonies and there is still a queen cell you could make a split leaving the virgin with the bees on the current site and putting a queen cell and some brood and bees on a new site.
What was the state of the brood? Were there eggs? What age were the youngest larvae. This can tell you approximately what date the hive swarmed by counting back to the date the last egg was laid.
I am assuming that you saw the clipped queen recently and that the queen you saw is not a supersedure queen from last year.

PS don't move the box with the virgin in it. If she has already flown and orientated, she will not be able to find her way back home after a mating flight.

[SueBee]

Thanks Jon,
The old queen was definitely there during weekly check last week, she was marked. Since there are so many bees, I guess they swarmed and came back?
Couldn't see any sealed queen cells yesterday, just queen cups. I'll check the hive again today and also assess eggs and larvae.
I marked the new queen yesterday so I should be able to find her. If there are further sealed queen cells, I might take them off with brood and bees to another site.

Lesson learned - make weekly check less than seven days rather than more!!
Sue

[gavin]

Hi Sue

It might be the case that what you are seeing is supercedure, but it is hard to judge from this distance. If you don't have queen cells (there must have been at least one), and the old queen has gone, and there is a new one in her place, that could be what has happened.

[SueBee]

Thanks Gavin, been into the hive today (damn but its hot in a bee suit in this weather!). The new queen is still there, running around, HUGE amounts of bees, the brood box and half of the super were stuffed!

Normally quite docile, they were a bit agitated today. Also a queen cell, with larva, close to closure I think (but remember only my first May with them) and several queen cups (couldn't see anything, but eyesight not brilliant at spotting eggs or small larvae). Is it normal to have a lot of drones at this point? I guess once new queen gets to flying and mating, a lot will disappear.

So I have taken new (only) queen on frame, frame of brood, two frames of feed and put her in a new hive next to the old one. Just hope I have done the right thing and not wrecked the colony?

Sue

[Jon]

Hi Sue
If you have a virgin queen you should never move her until she has flown and mated. If she has already flown once and orientated to the other hive she will reenter that original hive when she flies to mate.
If you want to make up a new colony take some brood and adhering bees along with a queen cell.
I am not sure what you should do now as it depends whether the new queen has already orientated or not.

[gavin]

Hi Sue

Jon is right - he gives good advice. Especially if you made the split later in the day, I would swap the hives asap so that the one with the new queen is on the old site. So, if she has already flown, she will return to the box you want her in. If she is yet to fly, then she will still fly back to the box you want her in. The risk is that she will fly from the box you put her in, and back to the other box where - i assume - you have left a queen cell to hatch (is that right?). Of course there are other complications - if you missed other queen cells you might now have another virgin flying from the other box - but let's keep this simple.

If you really just had one or two queen cells this was probably supercedure. The old queen would be quietly replaced by the new and no swarm issue. They may have left you with an additional queen cell which you can use to make a split.

best wishes

Gavin

[Jon]

I would swap the hives asap so that the one with the new queen is on the old site.

Good thinking Batman. That should solve any potential problem but needs to be done as soon as possible.

[SueBee]

Thanks guys, will check new hive (still with new queen I hope) this evening when things are quieter and swap them over. But which hive will the majority of bees (in the old hive) then go back to?
Wish I hadn't missed the flippin' queen cell(s) to start with... but I'm learning every day!

Sue

[gavin]

Sounds like your new queen is with the smaller number of bees. That's another reason for putting her (the box she is in I mean) on the old site, as then that colony will pick up the flying bees. The flying bees will generally fly back to the position they got used to, ie the old site for all except those that orientated from thei first flight in the last 24 hours. If you have a lack of a queen in one hive then there may also be a degree of changing allegiance to the queen-right one.

[Trog]

Are you in a local association with someone there who could act as a mentor? You might find that reassuring when sorting things out. Even a spare bod to handle the smoker's a help. Speaking of which, I'm just on my way out to check my lot - 7 days since I last did them!

[SueBee]

Well I moved the hives last night, bees didn't like the disturbance much, but settled down ok. Hopefully everyone is in the right place now...New queen plus with small amount of bees on old site, original hive with huge amount of bees and queen cell on new site. Will keep an eye on activity today (must fit some work in somewhere!). Hives are only 2 or 3 feet apart by the way.

Regarding local association, nearest is Oban and it seems very quiet - used to be loads of ads of activities and meetings before I got the bees, now nothing. Will try contacting, but can't imagine folk coming 30miles to here... Have a neighbour who used to keep bees but became allergic so can't go near them, husband spoke to him last night and happy to give advice. Could certainly have done with a hand moving the hives - weigh a ton when full of bees don't they.

[Trog]

I've sent you a message. Quite agree moving hives is a two person job - for the sake of doing it smoothly without unsettling the bees, if nothing else!

[SueBee]

I've sent you a message. Quite agree moving hives is a two person job - for the sake of doing it smoothly without unsettling the bees, if nothing else!

Came up with a method of placing a small table about hive height between two hives, putting the fullest hive as gently as poss onto it (ow my back!), then moving light hive to original stand, lastly heavy hive to second hive stand. Will be finding a bee suit for husband so he can help next time!

Bees seem to be happily coming and going from both hives now, will check all is ok with queen tomorrow and maybe stick another couple of empty frames in before weather cracks up on Thursday.