To Swarm or Not to Swarm, that is the question!

[darlo]

Can anyone help with some advice on splitting a colony?

I am new at bee keeping, and currently have only one colony, which at present is housed in two brood boxes. Today’s inspection showed that the bottom box has 8 out of 10 frames, with both sealed brood and larva, where the top box has 4 or 5 frames of capped brood, and another 2 frames of eggs.

The queen was in the top box today, and in bottom box last Saturday, so she is busy and readily moving between the two. Haven’t seen any queen cells yet, but did notice a queen cup on one frame in the bottom box.

What I would like to know is, when would it be a good time to try a split or artificial swarm, to increase my stock? And any hints and tips on how to go about it?

[gavin]

I'd wait until they do make queen cells - prompted by not being given more space - then you can split into two boxes or several nucs.

[darlo]

Thanks Gavin

Took another look yesterday, and still only queen cups, a few more drone cells but still plenty of capped, larvae and eggs, and with a good view of her majesty working hard in top brood box.
One super on for past week, but the bees still have not drawn any comb yet. I don't have any exluder on, and tempted to try some syrup to draw them up. What do you think?

Chris

[Jon]

If you put a super frame in the middle of the brood nest the bees will draw it out and the queen will lay in it.
They will probably draw drone comb below but you can cut that off.
If you put it back in the super above the excluder the bees will go up to look after the brood and should then work sideways.
You can put it back below the excluder before hatch date or if it is all worker brood, you can let it hatch in the super.
I am assuming your super is not drone foundation.
make sure you don't move the queen up if you do this.

[darlo]

Thanks Jon. They started to draw after 2 weeks, and then a week after that, I ended up doing an artificial swarm, which appeared to go well, however on the next inspection of the queened colony, I discovered a sealed queen cell, no old queen, and less bees. So I guess its fair to say, they swarmed. I didn't catch the swarm, but in the past week, have discovered a new colony in some old hives 100 yards away. Havent spotted the queen in there, so not 100% sure they are the swarm from my hive.

The origional quuenless hive, was left with queen cell, which was found emerged 8 days later. This is now 7 days after emergence (approx). Not sure whether the new queen has mated yet. The bees were flying around today fairly eratic, but it was a little windy, but starting to wonder if I will loose a cast from them?

Anyone have any suggestions as to how long this years virgins are taking to mate?

[Jon]

Anyone have any suggestions as to how long this years virgins are taking to mate?

I have had about 5 mated so far and they have taken from 12-18 days.

[Neils]

Around here I'd agree with Jon too although I've had a couple that have taken upwards of 4 weeks/inspections to come into lay before now. There is always the option if you can of using a test frame of eggs from another colony to establish whether you've got a queen or not.

With regards to Casts you should only lose cast swarms if you've left more than one queen cell and I believe I'm correct in saying that they'll normally issue a cast when the first queen emerges (and any subsequent queen cells).

[Adam]

Darlo,
I saw two queens yesterday evening in mini-nucs. I guess you could call them deflowered virgins as both showed 'the mating sign' where a bit of drone was still attached. One emerged on 17th June so was quite a young'un. The other emerged in May so had been around for a month or so - leaving it a bit late. I had some queens earlier this year that were laying in around 15 days after emergence. Last year I recall there was a small batch of 3 or 4 queens and I think the time was 24 days from emergence to laying. Today in the southern-most tip of Scotland we call Norfolk, the temperature is around 24 degrees, blue sky and England are about to lose at football. (Don't all cheer at once!).

[Jon]

There is always the option if you can of using a test frame of eggs from another colony to establish whether you've got a queen or not.

I stuck a test frame in a couple of nucs today which I suspect have lost their queens.
There will always be some that get disorientated or meet their maker via the belly of a swift.
With one of the nucs it is the second virgin to go awol.

England are about to lose at football. (Don't all cheer at once!).
I have more hatching next week so maybe third time lucky - not as Lucky as England though.
Could be Germany in the next round.

[darlo]

Well, I plan just to leave alone for two weeks before inspecting them, which will mean next monday. This will be my first look after queens emerged. Should I do this sooner, or would you leave alone for longer?

I really hope I will be as lucky as England - Come on England!!!

[sandy78]

Allow 10 days after emergence watch landing board for pollen going in and check.If no eggs allow another 5 days as I find I am usually a week out in my calculations its unlikely there will be a cast as I presume you only left 1 Q Cell Good luck
Thanks Jon. They started to draw after 2 weeks, and then a week after that, I ended up doing an artificial swarm, which appeared to go well, however on the next inspection of the queened colony, I discovered a sealed queen cell, no old queen, and less bees. So I guess its fair to say, they swarmed. I didn't catch the swarm, but in the past week, have discovered a new colony in some old hives 100 yards away. Havent spotted the queen in there, so not 100% sure they are the swarm from my hive.

The origional quuenless hive, was left with queen cell, which was found emerged 8 days later. This is now 7 days after emergence (approx). Not sure whether the new queen has mated yet. The bees were flying around today fairly eratic, but it was a little windy, but starting to wonder if I will loose a cast from them?

Anyone have any suggestions as to how long this years virgins are taking to mate?

[darlo]

Thanks Sandy. I took a look yesterday, and the bees appear to by acting normally around the entrance, with pollen going in, a few drones flying. When I opened up, I found 7-8 deep frames packed with pollen, capped honey and nectar, but no brood, no eggs and didn't see a queen.
I am guessing she may still be on mating flights. My concern now is, that assuming she mates in the next couple of weeks, will there be enough bees to attend her?

[darlo]

Well I went away on holiday for the week, came back and all looked well at the hive entrance, so opened up both hives, and there they were..... brood, lots of lovely brood. So my guess was her majesty's took around 4 weeks to mate. Although i suspect that the one queen was back and laying a week earlier, just as I went on holiday, as the bees were doing what bees should do, with pollen being taken in then.

So just need to keep an eye on that they dont decide to swarm again.