Possible supercedure

[walkhighlands]

Looking for some advice as usual :)

OK, I've a hive with a queen who was hatched in June 2012 - the first queen when I started out. This poly hive has built up really well this year, has lots of bees etc. A week ago, we found a sealed queen cell on middle of the outermost frame. Now this is the only frame in the hive with no brood or eggs on it, so I assumed it had to be empty and pulled down the cell, but it did have a larva in it.

Today I've gone through this hive again. Still looking really healthy, 9 frames with brood, eggs etc. and saw the queen again (who is clipped). But this time two unsealed queen cells on that same outermost frame (all the rest of the cells on this frame empty). I pulled down the smaller one. I presume the bees must be moving an egg from another frame, putting it on this empty frame and then building a queen cell (otherwise there would be eggs in another cell on the frame).

Does this mean it's a definite supercedure cell? The queen is obviously 2 years old but otherwise appears to be doing very well. At the moment I've left the unsealed queen cell in the hive this time - but is there a chance its a swarm cell and I should do an artificial swarm instead? If it is definitely supercedure, do you just leave things to take their course, or do you need to bunk the old queen off?

Many thanks in advance!
Paul

[Jon]

Sounds like supersedure allright.
Those cells would be great for making up a nuc or two if that is a decent queen, as supersedure queens are always very well fed.
They will likely keep on making them as fast as you remove them.

[walkhighlands]

Cheers.

To stop them making more... do you just leave one in the hive with the old queen and let them sort it out themselves? Or is some intervention necessary to prevent the virgin queen going with a swarm?

[fatshark]

Or … take a nuc off the colony with the current Q and let them raise a new one? It sounds like the colony is strong so it's not as though the queen is failing. Two good 'uns might be better than one.

[nemphlar]

A hive stuffed with bees will almost always throw a swarm, having said that if you have a few hives and can risk it it would be worth waiting as a big hive that resists swarming would be worth proving. An artificial swarm would be safest

[walkhighlands]

Thanks all so far :)

What I don't get is, if it is a supercedure cell and they are wanting to supercede the queen, then the solutions above - taking a split, artificial swarm etc. - all retain the old queen in one of the boxes. So how does the old queen actually get replaced, if she is due to be superceded?

[Bridget]

Hmm I see what you mean Paul. I think you are, by doing an AS, giving yourself a new colony and giving the old queen a chance to continue for a while. Of course her end will come but maybe by doing this you will get another colony out of her which if it survives to next year will go through the whole supercedure process again or will build up a colony which you can give a new queen to. I am no more experienced than you so I could well be wrong!


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[Jon]

The books will tell you that the bees know best blah blah blah and that there must be something wrong with the queen.
I have removed a supersedure cell on occasion and the queen sometimes goes on laying well for the next two years.
The bees sometimes do not know what they are doing!

fatshark, is there not some evidence that links early supersedure to DWV?

[fatshark]

Jon, I've seen the DWV-supersedure association referred to on Beesource and in this paper (http://www.virologyj.com/content/3/1/16) though the evidence is not really clear. There's also a post by 'Jon' on the BBKA site in late June last year (!). Correlation and/or causation may have yet to be properly determined. Clearly a queen with a high level of DWV might be detected as failing and replaced by the colony. Presumably a range of adverse events might be detected by the colony and initiate supersedure. The paper above demonstrates DWV in the reproductive tract amongst other things which might influence fecundity, but could also indicate systemic virus infection and general failing health. Aside from a failing Q I'm not sure how there would be a selective pressure for supersedure in the presence of high levels of DWV in the colony ... any replacement Q would simply face the same barrage of viruses that the old one had (and might even be worse off from the start having been raised during a time of high viral load). I would think the pressure might be to swarm rather than supersede. Assuming the Q was fit and healthy the swarm would leave with the bees, leaving behind the virus-riddled brood and bees unable to fly.
I have no direct experience of this ... the very few colonies I've had with really high DWV levels (often drone raisers) generally sorted themselves out with some prompt Apiguard and OA treatment at the end of the season. I had one last year that was in a terrible state (I'm ashamed to say). It's now got three full(ish) supers, 9 frames of brood, the same Q and has provided bees to populate 8 Kielers in the last month.

[Jon]

Must check what the Jon character was waffling on about on the bbka site! I hardly look at it now as most of the bbka posters are using the Facebook site run by Trish.

[Bridget]

Today I inspected the swarm I was given end of May. Been laying well so left it pretty much alone after a couple of thorough inspections early on. Today found 3 supercedure cells on the second and third frames in - one uncapped and empty and two still capped so removed those two and queens emerged from both. They didn't look like they were new born but scampered out. Did I read on here that VQ can delay their emergence? Anyway another new experience. Put them in queen less apideas but think I should have added more bees to one of them. Think I did it all too quick but when it's unexpected it's hard to think it through completely with bees buzzing round.


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[walkhighlands]

Hope those queens are doing ok in the apideas Bridget.

Update on the thread: the bees seemed to have torn down the supercedure cell we left and made another, but they'd also made a couple of swarm cells so we did do an artificial swarm in the end. So the old queen lives on - and they've gone from a one frame artificial swarm to almost a whole box of fully drawn and mostly laid comb already. The new queen made from a frame of eggs given to another hive which somehow got queenless is now laying too, so things are fairly happy in bee world at present.

[Bridget]

One apidea has 1 or 2 day old eggs. The other nothing yet but I need to do a proper inspection on Wednesday so will let you know then!


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