Here's a thing....

[Castor]

Hello Team,

Now here's a thing. I'm based in Gloucestershire, down a bit from the left hand end of Hadrians Wall.

I have been on four different forums over the past couple of days trying to locate some A.M.M. to bolster the native genome in my neck of the woods.

I have had roughly twenty responses - and it is noticeable that the only ones that were actually constructive and not arguing the toss have been from Scotland or Ireland, both north and south.

So my question is, are English beekeepers more argumentative than Scottish or Irish ones?

Castor.

[gavin]

Nah. We have some that are so argumentative they've imploded and disappeared in a puff of smoke. Self-cleaning behaviour.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

[Rosie]

Castor, it's because you left the best forum till last. Are you a member of BIBBA. There will be a new yearbook out this year with the contact details of all BIBBA's queen rearing groups. Most of them can't keep abreast of demand so they supply queens and other genetic material to members first.

[drumgerry]

Castor I sympathise. There's one particular forum that's so argumentative it was making me feel ill every time I visited or god forbid tried to participate. So much so I give it a very wide berth now. This is the only beekeeping forum I take part in now and almost without exception we're a friendly bunch. We're also very welcoming of those not fortunate enough to live in Scotland! :) . Pluuuuuus....we're mostly quite keen on native bees and have some of the best informed people on the subject - we are pretty lucky it must be said! All that and we like a good laugh! What more could a beekeeper want?!

[fatshark]

Other fora … not just argumentative … abusive as well


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDjCqjzbvJY

Of course … none of that sort of nonsense here. Firstly, we're all gentlemen (or gentlewomen … or in at least one case a gentleman posing as a gentlewoman) and secondly the admin's are ban-happy so we daren't disagree.

Have you tried the Stratford BKA? They're not too far from you (certainly relative to Hadrian's Wall). There is an active Amm group there with Peter Edwards and Terry Hitchman.

[Castor]

Thanks for the comments people. A nice reception, thank you.

I'm pleased to hear that the native bee is high on the agenda. Some of my local colleagues have looked at me askance as they order yet another Carnie Queen.
My bees seem to be tending, generation by generation, towards the black. I don't know where the genes are coming from - maybe there's a covert AMM breeder somewhere near me - so I thought I would add some known AMM or near AMM to the equation and see if we can't create a self-sustaining local population.

BIBBA? I gave up on BIBBA! - I spent a year as a member, received several quite interesting magazines, sent several emails to BIBBA officers and got not one response. I got a couple of "read" receipts, but then I gave up. I don't have time for complexity..... Like all of us, I expect they are busy people.

Nice to be here guys...... :-)

[Jon]

I will have Amm queens for sale from mid June.
At the moment I am grafting from one of Aoife's Galtee queens I got last June and another I got from Pat D, the chairman of the Native Irish Honeybee Society.
I have a load of colonies set up producing Amm drones which are unrelated to these.
Like you castor, I don't know why there is such an imbalance between supply and demand with Amm as weather notwithstanding, queen rearing is not that complicated.
Micheál Mac and Aoife sell about 300 per year, only within the island of Ireland, and Micheál commented at a NIHBS meeting that he could sell 5 or 6 times that amount if he had the capacity to produce them.

[Jon]

Some of my local colleagues have looked at me askance as they order yet another Carnie Queen.

You will have to be very careful with crosses as it is well documented by people like Ruttner that the Carnica x Amm cross is amongst the most aggressive.

[Feckless Drone]

[QUOTE=Castor;25654]Some of my local colleagues have looked at me askance as they order yet another Carnie Queen./QUOTE]

PAH! Some of us on Tayside are fated to get A. m. carnica Qs without ordering/trying. But then some of us feel lucky if its carnica and not ligustica that roles up. But the revolution is coming - oh, I've comeover all UKIP-like about european influences

[Jon]

I have heard quite a few local beekeepers talking about ordering bees from Scotland this year. I wonder are any of those imports getting sold on when they are supposed to be used for restocking. Who is checking? They don't have ear tags like cattle.

[mbc]

I am happy to supply amm from across clawdd Offa, or I know Ludlow beekeepers are breeding natives even closer to you.

[Jon]

What sort of numbers do you plan to produce mbc?
Last 4 years I produced about 50 for myself plus maybe another 100 in the queenrearing group.
This year I am aiming for about 250 from 100 apideas.
Famous last words!

[prakel]

You will have to be very careful with crosses as it is well documented by people like Ruttner that the Carnica x Amm cross is amongst the most aggressive.

Of course Ruttner and his brother were carnica breeders back in the day so maybe there was just a little bias in the original assessment. Don't get me wrong, I have the greatest of respect for his work but he proved that he wasn't infallible with that famous quote about training sheep to fight off wolves.

The Austrian carnica breeders association (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Daustrian%2Bcarnica%2Bbreeders%2Bassoc iation%26biw%3D1032%26bih%3D446&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=de&u=http://www.aca.at/index.php%3FseitenId%3D5&usg=ALkJrhh9K9VDs61Rnl3VjLanZAb5BNW3lw) has an interesting page devoted to their native breeds carnica/amm which mentions historical 'mixed areas' but makes no reference to temper issues.

edit: closer to home Ricky Wilson, Wales (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CD4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wbka.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F02%2FWelsh-Beekeeper-184-Spring-2014-Web1.pdf&ei=OjOGU5WdHLfIsATygIKIAg&usg=AFQjCNET9xTQms1sfmSG0YaJlIqUJcTL7Q&sig2=D58-IoE6_lBqflpuTHaVOQ&bvm=bv.67720277,d.b2U) (p.40-43, Pembrokeshire Beekeepers Association Breeding Project: The Story so Far) seems happy with carnica X amm bees too.

[mbc]

What sort of numbers do you plan to produce mbc?


What is this word "plan"?

[Jon]

As an irrelevant aside, Robin Moritz who wrote that limitations of morphometry paper which shows it to be pretty much a busted flush was one of Ruttner's PHD students.
The reference I have about the crosses and reciprocal crosses is in the chapter titled 'Races of bee' which Ruttner edited in Dadant - the Hive and the honey bee.

[Jon]

What is this word "plan"?

plan, hope, genetically engineer, pull from your backside, whatever!

[mbc]

plan, hope, genetically engineer, pull from your backside, whatever!

I've filled my nucs barring the Park langstroth half frame nucs and a dozen kielers so I guess I'll just fill them and then see how it goes.
I've over 80 cells out already with my annoying little pin box emptying fast of any green ones from the first two grafts, 47 more cells to put out in about a week and limited places to usefully keep mated queens, so the limiting factor seems to be how many people wish to buy. Sky's the limit if the demand is out there.

[Jon]

I just ordered more pins on ebay. Ever the optimist.
I probably have enough to do some voodoo on that yellow queen in the stack.

[gavin]

I wonder are any of those imports getting sold on when they are supposed to be used for restocking. Who is checking? They don't have ear tags like cattle.

Although originally the Scottish Government support for bee farmers was billed as restocking, it didn't happen like that. As I understand it they received a cold weather payment to do with as they please to improve/maintain their businesses.

[Castor]

So in the space of a day I have gone from no AMM Q sources to two in this very thread - my cup runneth over! Thanks, people.

I shall ponder overnight how best to proceed. I'm proposing to follow the logic published here (http://www.bees.me.uk/Bees/Apiary_Management.html), but alternative strategies, ridiculous proposals, and deranged fantasies are, of course, very welcome...

[gavin]

The Austrian carnica breeders association (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Daustrian%2Bcarnica%2Bbreeders%2Bassoc iation%26biw%3D1032%26bih%3D446&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=de&u=http://www.aca.at/index.php%3FseitenId%3D5&usg=ALkJrhh9K9VDs61Rnl3VjLanZAb5BNW3lw) has an interesting page devoted to their native breeds carnica/amm which mentions historical 'mixed areas' but makes no reference to temper issues.


Some fine words from Google Translate:

For the dark bee today it is especially important that the remaining population of intensive selective breeding is operated. Only a good Economical and a good behavior of the bees can get the endangered breed of bees yet. Legally regulated protected areas - if the bee is not further developed in economics and behavior - only ghetto, which only delay the loss of this subspecies, but ultimately can not prevent.

:)



edit: closer to home Ricky Wilson, Wales (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CD4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wbka.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F02%2FWelsh-Beekeeper-184-Spring-2014-Web1.pdf&ei=OjOGU5WdHLfIsATygIKIAg&usg=AFQjCNET9xTQms1sfmSG0YaJlIqUJcTL7Q&sig2=D58-IoE6_lBqflpuTHaVOQ&bvm=bv.67720277,d.b2U) (p.40-43, Pembrokeshire Beekeepers Association Breeding Project: The Story so Far) seems happy with carnica X amm bees too.

An interesting article. However he explains that he is line breeding the two types and creating hybrids which seem productive and gentle, apparently in the first generation. Several people have said that it is the later generations that show the bad temper. I can't think why he's going down that route as if he's distributing queens locally he'll come unstuck with his line breeding before long. Unless he keeps replacing his carnie and Amm lines from elsewhere.

This year in my own main apiary I'm struggling with horrible bees. They look to me like Amm x carnie cross derivatives, and a couple of them are amongst the worst bees I've seen for behaviour. No sign of the blackish Iberian type that Murray told me had been imported by a neighbour some years ago, and which also had a fierce temper. I wish that I had better information on the genetic make-up of all the bees around here, but it looks to me like 6 miles away we've managed to stay fairly pure Amm (we had a few accidental first generation Italian crosses last summer but have moved them on now) and at my main apiary the influence of carnie-based apiaries (I have at least three commercial guys with bees within a couple of miles) is overwhelming. I'll be requeening soon with Amm-type queens from elsewhere.

[nemphlar]

Perhaps a silly question. Can someone explain are the various AMM types that are being claimed, being compared against a recognised genetic type? And do the queen sales need to conform to this type

[gavin]

Not a silly question. A mix of provenance (do they derive from a recognised source of Amm?), visual checking (do they look right?), morphometrics (hair length, wing vein patterns and the like), even, for some, DNA tests.

Some sources have been verified by all of these, others not. Do queen sales need to prove their type? Depends how they're marketed I suppose. The same applies to all queen sales of course. The NZ carnies are in fact not pure carnies anyway, they're derived from repeat crossing of German bred carnies onto Italian stock so they still carry Italian DNA. And of course, in nature, perhaps none of the established types were always free of a degree of mixing.

[mbc]

interesting article

That piece has wound a lot of people up round here, in particular the line "The next step was to look at what breeding material was available, mainly dark temperamental bees that were not for the faint hearted to handle." dismisses the rich abundance of native bees carefully nurtured by many beekeepers*, which undoubtedly exist in pure (and not so pure) form across west Wales, without a backwards glance in a headlong rush to buy in bees from elsewhere to avoid any long winded selection work.
I have a lot of time for Ricky but hes shat on his chips with this nonsense IMHO

*these "not for the faint hearted to handle" bees are mostly kept by old style beekeepers who use a minimum of protection, unlike the users of the new crosses, this tells its own story about temperament.

[gavin]

You certainly wouldn't get me browsing off that man's chips. Which takes us back to caveat emptor I suppose (only that's a different thread!).

I was surprised that he managed to source Amm from 'a Scottish island'. If it was *that* Scottish island I doubt that the vendor was made fully aware of his breeding plans, and that he would be keen to supply replacements.

It would be nice if folk would report back to the Welsh magazine on their experiences of these hybrid bees a couple of years down the line.

[Rosie]

He's wound people up round here too especially as he implied that he was talking on behalf of his county association and BIBBA (of which he is not even a member!).

[mbc]

He's wound people up round here too especially as he implied that he was talking on behalf of his county association and BIBBA (of which he is not even a member!).

Not to mention implicating the NBU with his choice of carnies, thats another bit that really sticks in my craw, our own National Bee Unit advocating using foreign bees, they should be deeply ashamed.

[prakel]

An interesting article.

It just goes to show that there's often 'more' to a thing than is necessarily apparent at first sight.

My initial comment on this subject wasn't intended in any way to advocate mass imports or cross-breeding. I was merely trying to tease out some definitive recent (this century?) research. I don't quite buy the way in which some of the amm fraternity in this country have latched onto the 'carnica X amm =killer-bee' argument, mind, I don't buy the way certain vested interest beefarmers have taken the opposite stance either.

[Jon]

I don't quite buy the way in which some of the amm fraternity in this country have latched onto the 'carnica X amm =killer-bee' argument, mind,

It's not a case of latching on.
Ruttner carried out experimental work and published the results of crosses and reciprocal crosses as an increase or decrease in percentage aggression.
It's not an opinion piece like the Beowulf Cooper stuff.
The chapter I referred to in Dadant is based on his peer reviewed published work elsewhere.

[mbc]

I don't quite buy the way in which some of the amm fraternity in this country have latched onto the 'carnica X amm =killer-bee' argument, mind, I don't buy the way certain vested interest beefarmers have taken the opposite stance either.

Quite right, I have a fair bit of experience of the first and subsequent crosses and there is no certainty what their temperament will be like, many follow their mother, while others have a range of behaviour.
To me this is the issue, this uncertainty, at least with breeding "in strain" you have a fair degree of certainty about the outcome, if you can keep the matings true. Its the variability, uncertainty and instability of mixing up the bees which misses the wood for the trees and sets everyone back in the middle to long term.

[Jon]

Mating within strain does not 100% guarantee good temperament in the daughter colonies but it moves the odds in your favour.
You might get lucky with a subspecies cross producing a gentle colony but the odds certainly move against you.
Those who are likely to suffer the most are hobby beekeepers with 1 or 2 colonies in the garden who after losing a swarm suddenly find themselves with something self requeened they can't control.
If see any signs of aggression I just nip the queen and replace her.

[mbc]

Mating within strain does not 100% guarantee good temperament in the daughter colonies

Of course not, but keeping within strain does allow beekeepers who practice careful selection to send the traits of their bees in assured directional trends, its the hopping about and lack of direction or control when they're mixed up that confounds amateur breeders when they hope for the best with open matings in areas of mixed background drone populations.
IMHO stability must be the key.

[gavin]

My initial comment on this subject wasn't intended in any way to advocate mass imports or cross-breeding. I was merely trying to tease out some definitive recent (this century?) research. I don't quite buy the way in which some of the amm fraternity in this country have latched onto the 'carnica X amm =killer-bee' argument, mind, I don't buy the way certain vested interest beefarmers have taken the opposite stance either.

I'd also *really* like to know. Is the effect (if it exists) lessened when mild-mannered highly bred carnies are involved? Are NZ carnies with their ligustica cytoplasm different? Counting myself, I know of four beekeepers in this area with some particularly unpleasant bees this year. Three are experienced beekeepers reporting particularly difficult colonies. One is a beginner so daunted by her experience she's given up. I'm pretty sure breeding is the way out of this, but what is the main cause - a lack of strong selection recently or the effects of wide genetic mixing?

[mbc]

I'd also *really* like to know.

gentle amm x gentle amm = gentle amm

Gentle amm x gentle amanother = God only knows

[Jon]

gentle amm x gentle amm = gentle amm

Gentle amm x gentle amanother = God only knows

Agreed. I think this applied to any subspecies crossed within race.

There have been many reports in Ireland of beginners running into problems after purchasing a Buckfast colony which swarms and requeens itself.
In some parts of Ireland the background population is very much Amm and the Amm Buckfast hybrid seems to be a terrible concoction.
This was discussed at one of the NIHBS meetings last summer as several of the committee members had been involved in helping beginners who had initially bought a Buckfast colony which then went bonkers after requeening itself.

[prakel]

I've read Ruttner's work too and as I said before I know that it's excellent stuff but other than some comments from Br.Adam regarding the second generation I've not seen (at least, can't remember seeing) any other detailed studies of this subject.

Back in the 80s when BIBBA were translating a fair bit of really good information from Germany this carnica issue was given legs but that doesn't change the fact that (as far as I'm aware) the actual comparative research was done in the early 70s. There's a more recent (1991) paper (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=40E944022B5FBCB674B52745189501 63?doi=10.1.1.69.393&rep=rep1&type=pdf) which Jon has linked before which shows that a lot of the German carnica isn't even 'pure' in the classic sense but actually carries amm genes and yet there would appear to be no unduly excessive temper issues.


The data indicate that, in spite of tremendous breeding efforts, the bees of this area form a hybrid type between A. m. carnica and A. m. mellifera. Although land based mating stations have thus failed to produce pure racial types in this area, it is considered that such stations are of value to practical honey bee breeding if used appropriately in open population selection schemes.

I reckon that there's room here for some up to date detailed research into this subject for someone. But to be honest it probably isn't important enough a subject to warrant funding.

In the meantime those of us working with mongrels in mixed drone areas find that we need to either import from outside of the area or continue selecting for good temper, working through the bad generations when/if they appear.

If we're not bringing in pure race breeders on a regular basis the ultimate crux of the matter that probably does more to harm long term bee improvement in a modern country than anything else is having the suitable locations to allow us to work through the bad while developing something approaching a stable 'type'. This plainly isn't always possible so the usual, sensible answer is to cull all queens showing bad temper but that itself can take a huge toll on the genetics of a herd. I'm coming around to believing that selective replacement through culling isn't necessarily the best way to achieve actual long term (overall) improvement when we're dealing with open mated mongrels but often there's little sensible alternative. Hence my interest in good research on effects of crossing in both the initial generations and perhaps more importantly the longer term.

[prakel]

I'd also *really* like to know. Is the effect (if it exists) lessened when mild-mannered highly bred carnies are involved? Are NZ carnies with their ligustica cytoplasm different?

An imperfect window on the subject may be to look at how the later generations of the New World Carniolans developed in the US behave as (far as I can understand) they were bred in a similar way to the NZ carnies.

[Jon]

Prakel.
The Moritz paper showed that what was supposed to be pure race Carnica in Germany actually had some Amm genetics in the mix.
The key issue here is stability. Any population of mixed mongrels can stabilise to something decent over a period of time - ie the German 'carnica' has had about 50 years of continuous bee improvement. If you brought AMM queens into a German Carnica area tomorrow I bet the effects would be disasterous in terms of aggressive crosses.
The problem with subspecies crosses is the hybrid vigour/hererosis effect where the vigour can be expressed as increased aggression.
Buckfast is an example of a mixed bag of genes which can be stabilised into a docile productive bee (over a lifetime)

[prakel]

But this is the issue isn't it, there's no definitive way of pre assessing how a cross will go. 'The German Internet Portal of the dark bee' (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddunkle%2Bbienen%26biw%3D1032%26bih%3D 446&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=de&u=http://www.nordbiene.de/mythen-wahrheiten-und-unwahrheiten-dunkle-biene.html&usg=ALkJrhj9M7Pg0kelKqN5gCDrFEv3_NxOmg) which is ran by people that have experience of importing amm breeder queens into Germany seems to dismiss the idea that aggression is a problem even in F1, F2 and F3 queens, going so far as to categorize it as a myth.

[Jon]

That link to the German Internet portal on Amm propagates a lot of myths in itself.
Looks like it was written by the ghost of Beo Cooper.
Repeats the morphometry stuff and also claims that Amm has greater longevity.
Can't take any of that seriously at all.

[prakel]

The other side, a relatively recent book (2003) from the Slovenian Min of Ag and Beekeepers Association The Carniolan Bee in Slovenia (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=23&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CHcQFjAMOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fapiardeal.ro%2Fforum-discutii%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3 D1427.0%3Battach%3D54777&ei=9TaHU4HTOILfPavvgNAD&usg=AFQjCNFstjq-z8m__mFsc3WydXSYk3u6JA&sig2=pxlCy4TZ7AE6GQwJYCck6w&bvm=bv.67720277,d.ZGU) trans by Bernarda Starman states


Cross-breeding of the Carniolan bee with other bee races results in a strong heterosis effect. The colonies are vigorous and honey yields above average. However, at the same time, this often leads to increased aggressivness and disposition to swarming. It is especially the case with the second and third generations after input of foreign genes. Crossbreeds made between the Carniolan and the Italian bee breeds (although both are known as very gentle) are extremely aggressive.

Although no specific detail beyond that.

[Jon]

Crossbreeds made between the Carniolan and the Italian bee breeds (although both are known as very gentle) are extremely aggressive.
Ruttner noted the same thing and also the increased honey yield of the hybrids.
He did single out the AMM x Carnica as being the most aggressive though.

[prakel]

Does anyone here have a copy of the actual paper (or title) which Ruttner wrote on this subject? I imagine that the IBRA must have a copy in their archives but as far as I can see it's not openly available on the net.

re the longevity claims, for what it's worth as personal observation, Br Adam agreed with Cooper on that one:


Longevity: This quality must in my view head the list in this section. Presumably no one will question that substantial differences in longevity exist. It is a hereditary trait which, as our experience would indicate, promises major possibilities in breeding. A prolongation of the lifespan of a bee, even if only by a few days, will denote a corresponding increase in the effective foraging force of a colony. This in turn will mean a higher colony performance at no extra cost.

Certain races, notably the Anatolian, Carniolan and the dark west European varieties are long lived, a fact which is also manifested in the longevity of the queens. A life-span of up to five years in the case of queens of these races is no uncommon experience. On the other hand, there seems a relation between fecundity and longevity. Ultra-prolific strains - with possibly one exception - are invariably short lived; exceptional longevity is, on the contrary, found among the moderately prolific strains. Our former native bee was probably one of the most outstanding examples of longevity.
from: Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey.

[Jon]

Sounds like just comment from BA as opposed to experiment though.
I looked for Ruttner papers earlier and did not come across any.
I am a member of Ibra and did not see any there either.

[mbc]

I'm coming around to believing that selective replacement through culling isn't necessarily the best way to achieve actual long term (overall) improvement when we're dealing with open mated mongrels but often there's little sensible alternative.

I think the opposite, culling the chaff is far more important than breeding from your best.
Willie Robson writes about unsuitable bees brought in to an area going swarming crazy for a number of seasons in an attempt to bring their genetics closer to the locals through matings. Its a bit of a rough theory but there's more than a grain of truth in it IMHO, which fills me with dismay when considering areas where any trace of locally adapted bees are drowned in a flood of continuous imports, or areas where migratory beekeepers seasonally skew the bee population beyond all recognition. This was from his little book "Reflections on Beekeeping", which I found quite charming and also thought provoking.

[Black Comb]

Ruttner makes this claim in 'Breeding techniques and selection for breeding of the Honeybee'.
"In one of our own trials, pure queens from a breeding line of one race were mated with pure drones of the other at a secure mating station; the hybrid stocks gave a 30% higher yield than those of the pure carniolan line. In this test the nigra was 30% below the carniolan. The hybrid colonies were exceedingly vigorous in brood production, build up and overall vitality. They also wintered well. However, they had a drawback which was decisive, they were sting happy and restless. After several years work with these crosses, we had to abandon them in spite of their excellent output."

He goes on to list troubles with neighbours, difficulty in obtaining consent for out apiaries and sites for migratory beekeeping.

Later he says this good performance by hybrids was highest in the first generation. By the 3rd generation the "average performance was clearly less than those of the parent lines"

[prakel]

I think the opposite, culling the chaff is far more important than breeding from your best.
Willie Robson writes about unsuitable bees brought in to an area going swarming crazy for a number of seasons in an attempt to bring their genetics closer to the locals through matings. Its a bit of a rough theory but there's more than a grain of truth in it IMHO, which fills me with dismay when considering areas where any trace of locally adapted bees are drowned in a flood of continuous imports, or areas where migratory beekeepers seasonally skew the bee population beyond all recognition. This was from his little book "Reflections on Beekeeping", which I found quite charming and also thought provoking.

Maybe I could have explained my thoughts further; it seems to me that when bred-through, a disturbed background population if given chance to stabilise does calm down, I've had personal experience of this in recent years after a lot of people took up bees and brought in new stocks. Now, if we cull out everything that shows bad temper in a situation like that we're potentially removing more queen lines than we're keeping, as I say, lack of suitable isolated sites tends to make this necessary more often than not but if we're able to keep the lines going until everything settles down then there's naturally greater diversity to select from. There's never an excuse for wanting bad tempered bees but my own experience over the years has been that the overall drift is towards the calmer end rather than a steady increase towards greater violence. In the middle we have the anomalies that can be created by shaking up the gene pool, these are probably always going to be at the top of the culling list so long as their numbers don't start to dominate the apiary.

I also rate Willie Robson's book and would recommend it, as you say it's a thought provoking read.


-----------------------------------
Before this goes too far, let me back track to point out that I'm not claiming that bad temper can't be caused by the introduction of new blood. I am questioning the absolutist claim that a X b will always result in bad temper. I'm dubious of any such 'rules' because I don't believe that that's how nature works.

[Jon]

I am questioning the absolutist claim that a X b will always result in bad temper. I'm dubious of any such 'rules' because I don't believe that that's how nature works.

I don't think anyone is saying 'always' but I think it is very probable.
Genetics is a lottery and you might get away with a non aggressive cross but I think on the basis of what Ruttner found you would be quite lucky.

[prakel]

Earlier today, always looking for information, I messaged German forum member Hors who has Belgium amm stock with a question about the carnica/amm crosses in his experience. His reply was that yes he has found the crosses to be aggressive even into the second generation although not so much as the F1. Which is actually opposite to some of the other reports which suggest that the F1 can be good, then gets worse from the F2 (but I stress that this isn't meant to detract attention from the answer which he kindly sent).

[prakel]

Ruttner makes this claim in 'Breeding techniques and selection for breeding of the Honeybee'.
"In one of our own trials, pure queens from a breeding line of one race were mated with pure drones of the other at a secure mating station;

Great input - I missed this post when I checked in late yesterday. Does he give any stats re the number of queens/years involved in this experiment? Would be nice to know when and how extensive it actually was. Must retrieve my copy of 'Queen Rearing' from seemingly endless loan (just in case) although I don't remember any detail appearing in there.

[Jon]

I have that book but have not read it cover to cover. Must take another look.

[Rosie]

Earlier today, always looking for information, I messaged German forum member Hors who has Belgium amm stock with a question about the carnica/amm crosses in his experience. His reply was that yes he has found the crosses to be aggressive even into the second generation although not so much as the F1. Which is actually opposite to some of the other reports which suggest that the F1 can be good, then gets worse from the F2 (but I stress that this isn't meant to detract attention from the answer which he kindly sent).

I once had an F1 colony that managed to influence my beekeeping ever since. By "F1" I mean that the queen was pure but was was carrying sperm from pure drones of another race. I my case the queen was Amm and the drones were Greek Buckfasts.

They were incredibly prolific and still black like the mother. The F1 workers seemed to be influencing the queen's laying rate and the queen's gentleness was influencing the workers which appeared reasonably gentle. All seemed wonderful so I decided to use the colony as a queen cell starter/finisher and removed the queen in preparation for inserting grafts. Without the queen they went berserk. I will spare you the rest of the story but I have tried hard to avoid mixing races and also developed a queenright queenrearing system. I have also seen aggressive F2 colonies in which the queen was F1 and the workers F2. In that case the queen can be naturally as horrible as her workers so you don't have to remove the queen for them to be unmanageable. Perhaps your German Correspondent defines that generation as F1 because the queen is.

Of course in most of the UK it's impossible to totally avoid bad matings and grumpy bees pop up all the time. I find it difficult to comprehend the thinking of those that deny that F2 aggression exists when it has been well reported by respected beekeepers for many years both at home and abroad and modern occurrences abound.

[prakel]

Is anyone denying that F2 aggression can exist?

I'm asking for peer reviewed papers examining, in depth, this whole subject; very different to denying anything.

[Rosie]

I am certainly not accusing you of denying anything but I regularly come across people (usually importers of bees) who deny it.

In fact I too would like to see some indisputable scientific analysis of the subject but fear there might be political reasons why such research might not get funding.

I am told that Ruttner developed a standard method of testing the nature of colonies based on waving a glove infront of colonies and counting stings left in it but I have not seen the paper.

[prakel]

My mistake :)

Yes, I accept that some traders have come out with such claims which is as good a reason as any for tracking down this research if it's ever been published, failing that we're left with personal observation and anecdote. Let me stress that I've personally got no issue with such observations when they originate from astute observers with meticulous record keeping skills especially when their daily lives involve looking at statistically high numbers of colonies but it's still not anywhere near conclusive which is why I initially derailed this entire thread (sorry Castor!) with a query regarding the extent of the scientific basis of a popular quote (irrespective of the fact that it came from a well respected scientist).

[prakel]

I am told that Ruttner developed a standard method of testing the nature of colonies based on waving a glove infront of colonies and counting stings left in it but I have not seen the paper.

A similar test using a black ball has long been used to test defensiveness of (suspected)Africanised colonies not sure if it developed independently or whether there might be common origin*. Here's one paper from AC Stort that demonstrates the method, it's also got some interesting cross over references applicable to the rest of this thread.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmb.org.br%2FRevistas%2FV03%2 Fv03a19.pdf&ei=e2CIU-y-B4bZOdvsgeAE&usg=AFQjCNGc7Ry7r4TIRpc27wktc1meLQkmWQ&sig2=6msjcIRFzuv8VjUC4wDVwQ&bvm=bv.67720277,d.ZGU

edit: *just as a side note and in no way suggesting that Ruttner's glove test wasn't developed independently I just found this interesting obituary of Antonio Carlos Garros Stort (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scielo.br%2Fscielo.php%3Fscri pt%3Dsci_arttext%26pid%3DS1415-47572005000300001&ei=PWyIU6i5JMaNONSygagJ&usg=AFQjCNH3VEfsZdkGOegALsSAbu9hXz5P8g&sig2=cSJcKbRZ22jhGyomFB4gPA)(1939-2005) which includes the following line


He was the first scientist who developed methods for the study of the aggressive behavior of Africanized bees; these methods are still used today all over the world.

[gavin]

There's a chapter in the book edited by Thomas Rinderer on Bee Genetics and Bee Breeding (http://www.groovycart.co.uk/cart.php?c=533&p=12873&buy=Rinderer%2C+T+%28+ed%29+-+Bee+Genetics+and+Breeding) which describes the genetics of temper, but as I recall it doesn't tackle hybridity as a cause of poor temper. It reviews the literature and covers the range of methods experimenters have used to assess temper. Will check when I have time.

Reluctant to put an Amazon link, I checked at Northern Bee Books (http://www.groovycart.co.uk/beebooks). They have a range of interesting titles! There's a picture on the front of Ben Harden's new book on queen raising.

G.

[Black Comb]

Great input - I missed this post when I checked in late yesterday. Does he give any stats re the number of queens/years involved in this experiment? Would be nice to know when and how extensive it actually was. Must retrieve my copy of 'Queen Rearing' from seemingly endless loan (just in case) although I don't remember any detail appearing in there.

No, no stats. Quite an interesting book though.

[prakel]

Quite an interesting book though.

Agreed, used to have a copy but it went astray a long time ago, still excellent £value if bought new but I've seen some insane prices asked for second hand copies!

[prakel]

I am told that Ruttner developed a standard method of testing the nature of colonies based on waving a glove infront of colonies and counting stings left in it but I have not seen the paper.

I'm not really in the mood for awakening this thread but having just seen this short 1961 film elsewhere I reckon that it deserves to be linked in


http://www.britishpathe.com/video/bee-research/query/Dr#


Top shot of a vole and some cotton wool balls in a glass container. A scientist, Dr. John Free reaches in and takes a cotton wool ball. M/S of Dr. Free attaching the ball to string at the end of a long pole - a ball without the vole's scent is also attached. Dr. F. walks to the hive. C/U of the pole poking the hive to provoke the bees to attack. M/S of Dr. F. examining the balls. C/U of Dr. F. counting the number of stings in the balls - there are more in the ball with the vole scent suggesting animal smells make bees sting.

[HJBee]

I wish I could keep my bees in my garden if that is the case, voles are a ruddy nuisance as they eat so many plants and veggies!