View Full Version : Is Clipping Queens Good Practice?
prakel
04-05-2014, 09:53 AM
I'll put my cards on the table to begin with.
I clip queens, usually at the start of the season although that's more to do with just trying to catch up rather than any real concern about inducing supercedure by clipping too early in the queens life which is something I've seen mentioned many times.
But, like all of my beekeeping, clipping is under review (over the last few years I've been taking a close look at a lot of what I do and don't worry in the least if it means changing previously strongly held opinions -if it works better than what I was doing previously).
Recently there's been a lot of talk about the pros and cons of clipping which has got me thinking about the subject again so I thought that it might be interesting to see what the general consensus here is. I've kept the poll private in the hope that those who presently choose not to post will be happy to get involved. It would of course be interesting to learn of people's reasons for their choice, or general thoughts on the subject.
To start the ball rolling here's (http://www.bee-craft.com/should-clipping-queen-bee-wings-be-used-to-extend-inspection-intervals/) a 'for and against' article from the Bee Craft archives.
Black Comb
04-05-2014, 10:32 AM
By coincidence there is a current thread in another place, with pics.
I thought esteemed member on here MBC made a good argument for.
drumgerry
04-05-2014, 10:34 AM
I don't object to it per se but it's not something I do much of. I try to stay on top of my colonies and their swarming preps and I feel that's sufficient. Maybe once every few years I get caught out and lose a swarm but I can accept that. Perhaps if I had hundreds of colonies I might feel differently.
I might clip a queen's wing if I'm setting a beginner up with bees and in fact I did so just last week. That way if they miss a QC and they swarm all is not lost.
I don't have a moral objection to it as some, dare I say it new-agey type, beekeepers seem to.
prakel
04-05-2014, 01:18 PM
I don't object to it per se but it's not something I do much of. I try to stay on top of my colonies and their swarming preps and I feel that's sufficient. Maybe once every few years I get caught out and lose a swarm but I can accept that. Perhaps if I had hundreds of colonies I might feel differently.
Thinking along similar lines is what's made me question the whole thing again. Interestingly there are a few bee farmers who don't, the minority no doubt but they're certainly out there. I used to know a beefarmer in Wilts who'd ran 800 colonies as a younger man without clipping, likewise Ged Marshall does a talk (I've not heard it personally) on his swarm management system which, again, doesn't involve clipping.
We've never clipped our queens, mostly because in the early days with only two colonies, we couldn't afford to risk damaging a queen. When we moved here, where replacement queens were unobtainable, we carried on not clipping. We've lost maybe 3 swarms in 22 years. Mostly we either see them starting and follow them (usually not far round the garden) or see them in a hedge near the apiary (there are more than enough indications something's about to go off, eg hearing a bee buzzing in the kitchen chimney, seeing investigating bees around the windows and roof, etc - which prompts us to wander over to the apiary to take a look). We don't mark queens either, partly for the same reason, and partly because ours are quite friendly/vain and like to be admired on the comb!
Little_John
04-05-2014, 02:34 PM
I don't clip. My reasons (as if anyone cares ... :)) are:
1) it's yet one more unnecessary job.
2) for me, it would be an admission of beekeeping incompetence. It also has the smell of 'control-freakery' about it.
3) if I can't be arsed to keep my bees from swarming, then let 'em take their chances elsewhere, and - maybe - let somebody I don't know and will never meet catch and hive them as a gift from someone they will never meet.
Have you never caught someone-else's swarm ? Why only 'take' ... why not 'give' once in a while ?
4) what's the big deal anyway ? Lose a colony, make a colony - "swings and roundabouts", an' all that. :)
I'm sure I'd feel differently if I had 'breeder-quality' queens, but then I'd probably use magnetic disks, rather than clip.
fatshark
04-05-2014, 03:49 PM
I didn't used to but do now. Some of my colonies are near private gardens or other areas I'd prefer not to have to go chasing swarms in. I consider it good neighbourly behaviour not to impose on others. Of course, I try and prevent swarming - I missed two last year, one clipped the other not. I got them both back.
As an aside, the unclipped queen swarm was easier to recapture. Shoulder height, clear underneath, one tap and boxed. In contrast the clipped queen crawled under a triple hive stand and was the devils own job to get back!
I clip all my queens but I manage the colonies as if they were not clipped in terms of swarm control, ie I do weekly checks, fortnightly at worst, and take appropriate action if I find charged queen cells. I see the clipping as insurance. I always have spare queens over the summer so I can handle losing a clipped queen as opposed to 20,000 bees.
I rarely lose a swarm unless I have to be away unavoidably for 3 weeks over the summer.
prakel
04-05-2014, 05:22 PM
I clip all my queens but I manage the colonies as if they were not clipped in terms of swarm control, ie I do weekly checks, fortnightly at worst, and take appropriate action if I find charged queen cells. I see the clipping as insurance. I always have spare queens over the summer so I can handle losing a clipped queen as opposed to 20,000 bees.
I rarely lose a swarm unless I have to be away unavoidably for 3 weeks over the summer.
Much the same here at present -there's a huge difference in the mindset of using clipping as a first line of defence or as 'insurance'.
Rosie
04-05-2014, 06:51 PM
I clip all mine. I used to just do the odd queen to keep my "hand in" but about 4 years ago I realised that my oldest queen happened to be a clipped one and wondered if the clipping had something to do with it. I subsequently started clipping half my queens in order to make up my own mind about the pros and cons. Then I was called to a swarm in the village which had settled in someone's cavity wall. Although I don't think I had lost a swarm I am capable of losing the odd one so I abandoned my test and started clipping everything. Since then I have hardly lost any although, like Jon, I still try to inspect weekly.
By coincidence there is a current thread in another place, with pics.
I thought esteemed member on here MBC made a good argument for.
Lol.Why thank you Black Comb:)
Much the same here at present -there's a huge difference in the mindset of using clipping as a first line of defence or as 'insurance'.
This is it, clipping is neither here nor there, it just gives a better chance of getting to swarming colonies in time to do something about it, I do resent the the attitude that its somehow backwards though. I do know of commercial beekeepers who operate extensive (rather than "intensive") management systems who do not clip because they know full well there would be occasions when they would lose bees in a sodden heap in the grass because of not getting to them in time, and so it being fairer on the bees to let them go.
I had a clipped queen which superseded in year 4 last August and never tried to swarm.
This one, for you morphometry buffs!
2000
I found her in her colony with the laying daughter queen last July and rescued her to a nuc and they superseded her a second time from the nuc shortly afterwards and I took some grafts in the interim period as well.
One of her daughters overwintered in an apidea so seems like hardy enough stock.
I have 4 colonies headed by her daughters so hopefully some of them will have the same trait.
I don't think clipping makes any difference to whether a queen gets superseded or not unless you make a mess of it and damage her in some way.
I find that a lot of people who are 'against clipping' actually don't know how to do it or have never tried.
I find that a lot of people who are 'against clipping' actually don't know how to do it or have never tried.
Most would lose stools at the thought of picking up a queen.
For what it's worth, we don't clip our hens' wings either; we like them to have half a chance of getting away when attacked by dogs (all too often in the past). We lost our lovely pair of geese that way when a neighbour's GSD attacked but they flew and survived. We found them on farmland, happily grazing with greylags and they remained feral. Likewise with swarms; they usually stay within our large garden but the few that get away usually send us a swarm back after a few years of happy feral life in an old building where they do nobody any harm.
crabbitdave
04-05-2014, 08:11 PM
Hi all, I don't clip either but am one for do what works for you, I just my check my bees every week I know if I clipped her I could leaved my inspections a little longer, but do enjoy visiting my bees
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Most would lose stools at the thought of picking up a queen.
The thing is, you don't even have to pick up a queen to mark and clip her.
I bought one of these (http://www.thorne.co.uk/queen/marking?product_id=4414) a couple of months ago and it is so simple a complete novice could mark and clip a queen.
gavin
04-05-2014, 08:48 PM
Like what those people said. Whatever is good for you.
I'm a non-clipper turned clipper as my colony numbers have grown and my inadequacies (or possibly just insufficient time) showed. Last year, I lost swarms into a castle (oooo! - maybe giving away too much there about where my bees are) and into a walled garden wall cavity, both of which caused a degree of inconvenience for people. One of our members lost a prime swarm in his first year which terrified an elderly lady whose cottage chimney they adopted, for a few days at least. Swarms can be frightening things, even for entirely rational and reasonable people, at least when they take up residence where they're not wanted. And few of us are so isolated that our swarms can't affect anyone.
Here's another thing: swarms occupying feral sites near my apiary (and they're not all mine, some summers there are casts roaming the countryside, sometimes stopping by in the apiary for a while) definitely shed Varroa back into my bees as their own load becomes intolerable. Not an issue (for now) on Varroa-free Mull, but it is noticeable here.
OK, some people (me in my first decade of beekeeping) wouldn't find clipping straightforward. Some people don't like the idea of defacing (or partially de-winging) a rather stunning insect, some may have deeper philosophical reasons for not clipping a queen. But letting bees swarm is antisocial in my view - we should all be trying to avoid doing that by whatever means is appropriate to your beekeeping.
Yep. Letting swarms take up residence where they like is antisocial. I remember getting into a (futile as always) argument on Biobees where Uncle Phil argued that the bees had a right to swarm and as such it was people who had to learn to live with that.
Neils
05-05-2014, 05:16 PM
I'm another non clipper who voted "no" to objecting to it. I totally understand why people do clip and this year was the first time that I thought I might go down the route of clipping, I just never got around to it and I've nearly completed my swarm management for this year! (touch wood).
I just accept that the price of not clipping is having to be far more rigid around inspecting because I'm certainly not in an area at the moment where I can just ignore swarm prevention and control nor ignore swarms when/if they do issue. Additionally I believe that I'm now at a point where I'm far more capable at reading a colony and none of them thus far have taken me by surprise, in fact today's colony that I artificially swarmed was bang on schedule.
chris
05-05-2014, 05:21 PM
I don't clip my queens, but I cut my chickens' wing feathers.And I don't lose stools, though I sometimes kick one over when trying to milk a goat.:o For me, the beekeeping year leads up to swarming. I don't believe that swarm control capacity is the means by which a beekeeper should be judged.A swarm of bees in movement is one of the
most awesome and magnificent things I have seen in nature. I wouldn't miss it for anything.Of course there are no neighbours to worry about near here. A couple of generations ago, a swarm was looked upon as a blessing, but then most country folk had bees.
Should the possibility to swarm without bothering neighbours be taken more into consideration when choosing an apiary site?
prakel
05-05-2014, 05:47 PM
I'm another non clipper who voted "no" to objecting to it. I totally understand why people do clip and this year was the first time that I thought I might go down the route of clipping, I just never got around to it
I chose the wording as I reckon it's the base-line from where everything else develops :) I played around with a couple of other versions but decided to keep it simple (for me). Of course, objecting needn't only be on the grounds of thinking it's cruel etc, it could equally be due to individual management philosophy -as Little John outlined (and also, David Cramp in the Bee Craft link).
Little_John
05-05-2014, 06:10 PM
Yep. Letting swarms take up residence where they like is antisocial. I remember getting into a (futile as always) argument on Biobees where Uncle Phil argued that the bees had a right to swarm and as such it was people who had to learn to live with that.
"Futile" being the operative word. It's very important over there to tread the party line - there's a total intolerance of other viewpoints. Fortunately (from the neighbours/ anti-social perspective) I live in open countryside. But the price to be paid for that luxury is precious little forage, fields sprayed without warning, and so on.
So - rural beekeeping vs. urban beekeeping - each has it's own problems ...
Almost forgot - there is an alternative methodology - just let 'em swarm.
But - fit your hives with swarm arresters. That way the bees do what nature urges them to do, no bees are actually lost, and there's no anti-social swarming to upset the neghbours. Simples.
Neils
05-05-2014, 06:14 PM
I chose the wording as I reckon it's the base-line from where everything else develops :) I played around with a couple of other versions but decided to keep it simple (for me). Of course, objecting needn't only be on the grounds of thinking it's cruel etc, it could equally be due to individual management philosophy -as Little John outlined (and also, David Cramp in the Bee Craft link).
Indeed. Having not quite lost all of my idealism over the past few years, I'd certainly have been in the "it's cruel" camp until very recently. I'm still not entirely sold on the idea of clipping queens, but being in an area where having lots of swarms hanging out of trees is not going to make me very popular and where having a bunch of "let them swarm!" beekeepers close by had us guilty by association I'm no longer as adverse to the idea as I maybe once was.
Ignoring our somewhat unpredictable weather I'm not convinced of the necessity of clipping now I'm a few years into beekeeping, but it's certainly handy insurance for beginners though I do feel it is sometimes taught not so much as insurance but to let you not have to be too careful or regular in inspecting hives during this time of year.
(and also, David Cramp in the Bee Craft link).
reinforced my opinion of his work:rolleyes:
prakel
06-05-2014, 06:45 AM
Tempted as I was to enquire.... :)
Little_John
06-05-2014, 10:24 AM
Bloke managed 4,000 hives in NZ ... I wonder if he ever thought of taking up bees seriously ...
prakel
15-05-2014, 09:46 AM
Just a reminder that there's still some life left in the poll...
Just had a swarm arrive in a bait box in the garden thanks to a non clipper.
Yellow bees and a big yellow queen in it.
Her days are numbered.
The Payne poly nuc with the eke on did the trick.
Bloke managed 4,000 hives in NZ ... I wonder if he ever thought of taking up bees seriously ...
Are you sure they weren't mismanaged similarly to the trail of train wrecks of beekeeping attempts around Europe?
Feckless Drone
15-05-2014, 04:45 PM
Poor Q Jon!. But I guess that's a mating nuc ready for you. What else did you use with the poly? Just old comb and space free above in the eke?
Little_John
15-05-2014, 05:45 PM
Just had a swarm arrive in a bait box in the garden thanks to a non clipper.
Huh ... I had to burn a gallon of petrol to go and get one earlier today (brown bees - when clustered).
Gloriously hot sunny day - classic swarming weather. Yep - I think non-clipping is to be recommended. :)
prakel
15-05-2014, 06:47 PM
Poor Q Jon!
It's a tough life, do your best, build a strong colony set off on a great adventure with the intention of establishing a new outpost of golden bees and find you've landed in a black bee experts garden :)
I measure some swarms in terms of how many Apideas they will fill!
I had one old comb in it at the top resting on the lip of the eke.
I took the eke off as soon as the swarm was in and filled the space with new frames and foundation so it is now in a 6 frame poly nuc with 2 combs and 4 frames with foundation.
Might need more room actually as it looks like a fair sized swarm.
I had it on the top shelf at the back of the shed The apideas are gone now.
2015
It's a tough life, do your best, build a strong colony set off on a great adventure with the intention of establishing a new outpost of golden bees and find you've landed in a black bee experts garden :)
Luckily the swarm seems to have arrived without many drones so I am guessing it is a prime. A swarm with a virgin queen often has a lot of drones in it.
I have had good results with queens mating from my garden so the last thing I need is a load of yellow drones in residence. I'll move it away somewhere just to be on the safe side.
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