Drone brood removal

[snimmo243]

I know it is still early to consider this just now but does anyone have strong opinions (I know I shouldn't really ask that:D ) as to when the best time is to start this process using super frames?

Steven

[Jon]

I have slabs of drone brood in some of my colonies and Gerry mentioned the other week that some of his had drone brood and he is in Speyside.
Once your colony has about 5 frames of worker brood you could put a super frame at each side of the brood nest.
At this time of year it is almost certain that the comb they draw below the super frames will be drone cell.
Once it is capped you can remove it and scrape it off with the hive tool before replacing the super frame.

[drumgerry]

I must say drone brood removal isn't something I do a lot of. Unless there's a particular problem with varroa in a colony or for a completely different reason of taking most of that colony's drones out of the breeding pool. I don't just cull drone brood as a matter of course. Interested to hear others thoughts on this.

[snimmo243]

I've used this procedure previously, I have one hive that has a high count so particularly want to target that hive. Last time I used it the problem became evident in the middle of summer so there was already lots of Brood

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[Jon]

I'm with Gerry.
The drones are a precious resource and I would only cull drone brood if there was a clear varroa problem with no other alternative.
Something like MAQS used for a week would likely kill the mites. I haven't tried MAQS myself yet.

[drumgerry]

I've seen it taught to beginners to put a shallow frame (or two) into every brood box every Spring and it's never sat quite right with me. I understand the whole IPM logic but surely the old grey matter has to be applied as well! My own personal varroa situation seems, with the odd exception, to be kept within manageable proportions by Apivar in the Autumn and a midwinter oxalic trickle.

[Jon]

I skipped the autumn thymol treatment on my main apiary after taking careful mite counts. I did an Oxalic trickle late December and the apiary is booming at the moment.
First time I tried that but no apparent ill effects. I would not do that without the mite count data from samples of 300 bees.

[snimmo243]

My last count on 31 March showed a drop of 3.1 per day, this is the colony that dropped nearly 2500 in the three weeks after oxalic in january so I feel I need to do something. This colony currently has 4 frames of brood. My concern with maqs is the reported halt in laying at a time when I'm hoping to build up the colony to exploit osr. I don't know if anyone can allay my fears on this. For similar reasons I think the shallow frame is preferable to a trap as it allows the queen to continue laying workers, although I suppose this also makes it less efficient against varroa as well as the wasted (from the bees perspective) wax that continually has to be drawn

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[Jon]

Maqs treatment lasts a week and kills mites inside the cells.
I am amazed that colony is still alive after dropping 2500.
I lost a colony which dropped 800 mites in November and dwindled to nothing by February.

[snimmo243]

Hi Jon
The colony is not just alive it is doing better than my other colony which has consistently shown a zero drop except when treated

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[snimmo243]

I just read the maqs faqs on Thornes website which states the bees need to have six frames of brood so that gives me a couple of weeks to ponder

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[brothermoo]

Hi Jon
The colony is not just alive it is doing better than my other colony which has consistently shown a zero drop except when treated

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Perhaps mite drop isn't as important as ability to withstand high mite levels? People breeding for Vsh look for low mite levels yet perhaps you have a colony with great genetics that allows the bees to survive even with sustained high varroa levels?

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[Jon]

Amazing that a colony with so many mites is coping so well. Maybe more to do with lack of virus. Bees can tolerate a lot of mites but it is usually the mite vectored virus which does for them in the end.

[snimmo243]

I've wondered if that colony is just more hygienic than the other colony with the low/zero drop, also I don't entirely get the logic behind the total mite formula ie the low multiplier in the summer when most of the mites are in the brood then the high multiplier in winter when the mites are in the phoretic stage! Surely if ten drop in winter that represents ten of the available mite population whereas if ten drop in summer that only represents ten of the population that are not in the brood! Anyway back to my original question of when should I put the shallow frames in and if I try maqs should I wait until they are going at osr hammer and tongs?

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[Jon]

post #2.
I reckon when you have 5 frames of brood they will start to draw drone comb if you add the shallows at each side of the nest.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... when should I put the shallow frames in and if I try maqs should I wait until they are going at osr hammer and tongs?
Steven, with such a huge drop of mites I don't think you should linger. I think you should contact Bridge Vets now for Apivar or more advice.
Kitta

[busybeephilip]

Maybe I'm off topic a wee bit but, has anyone ever measured the exact timings from egg to hatched bee and linked this to a potential varroa resistance model. A lot of work but it might be interesting to see if colonies that have a faster life cycle (or slower as an opposite effect), even if only an hour show increased varroa resistance

[snimmo243]

Hi Kitta My last count at the end of March was down to 3.1 per day or 310 total, I believe the danger line is at 1000 total or 10 per day in March and April so I don't think it is chronic although it is high

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[Jon]

Maybe I'm off topic a wee bit but, has anyone ever measured the exact timings from egg to hatched bee and linked this to a potential varroa resistance model. A lot of work but it might be interesting to see if colonies that have a faster life cycle (or slower as an opposite effect), even if only an hour show increased varroa resistance

That is one of the reasons African bees such as scutellata are better able to deal with mites. The workers emerge more than 24 hours earlier than mellifera workers.

[busybeephilip]

That is one of the reasons African bees such as scutellata are better able to deal with mites. The workers emerge more than 24 hours earlier than mellifera workers.

Yes, but within the existing Amm populations in ireland there could be some where brood emerges faster, these would be a very precious bee

[Jon]

The main variable is temperature.
Queens can take anything from 15-18 days to emerge.

[nemphlar]

Jon thanks for the comments on varroa resistence, I hope your optimism that's its a continuum is correct. Do you know if anyone has a 4 year survivor where a brood break is not implicated.
Excuse me jumping threads

[Neils]

I know it is still early to consider this just now but does anyone have strong opinions (I know I shouldn't really ask that:D ) as to when the best time is to start this process using super frames?

Steven
Just to skip back a bit :)

My opinion is that normally (I think I'm going to be behind this year from the weather so far) that I like to get an impression of the hive first, let the first batch of drone brood be raised and I'll uncap a few forkfuls a week or so before it's due to emerge to get an idea of the mite count and judge it from there. If the first batch indicates a heavy mite count I will remove it, but I generally prefer to let the first batch emerge and then, if I feel that it's necessary, again by uncapping sections first, remove the second batch entirely. I use 14x12s and have frames wired horizontally with no foundation so I can sample 1/3rd of frame at a time.

You do need to uncap drone brood at the right stage of development, i.e. "purple eye" stage which few places tend to actually quantify in terms of development but which I tend to think is from about day 16 onwards so you do need some idea of how old the brood is. Hoiking out hundreds of immature brood is not going to tell you much.

While I think removing drone brood is a valuable part of an IPM scheme, you do need to balance the colonies' need for drones with removing mites.

We definitely have drones flying round these parts and I think we'll see an early swarming season this year. mid to late May is when I'd normally expect it to start in earnest but I think it will be much earlier this year.

[greengumbo]

Unless there are Varroa that complete their development quicker as well !

[mbc]

My thoughts on drone brood removal are that it can be a valuable technique to buy you time if varroa are getting ahead when the supers are on.
I also find giving them an area to build their own comb in very useful for a variety of reasons.
-what they do with this area is a good indication of what the colony's up to at a glance.
-giving them somewhere to put a good slab of drone brood encourages them to draw out worker foundation elsewhere in the box correctly.
-its dead simple and quick to find drone brood to sample for varroa and discard if necessary.
-the extra work involved and the available space can help alleviate the swarming urge.
Personally I dont like giving them a shallow frame, too often they attach it to the box and this increases the risk to the queen upon inspection, instead I like to cut off the bottom of the comb in a frame in each box to leave an appropriate gap, much betterer IMHO.

[Neils]

My thoughts on drone brood removal are that it can be a valuable technique to buy you time if varroa are getting ahead when the supers are on.
I also find giving them an area to build their own comb in very useful for a variety of reasons.
-what they do with this area is a good indication of what the colony's up to at a glance.
-giving them somewhere to put a good slab of drone brood encourages them to draw out worker foundation elsewhere in the box correctly.
-its dead simple and quick to find drone brood to sample for varroa and discard if necessary.
-the extra work involved and the available space can help alleviate the swarming urge.
Personally I dont like giving them a shallow frame, too often they attach it to the box and this increases the risk to the queen upon inspection, instead I like to cut off the bottom of the comb in a frame in each box to leave an appropriate gap, much betterer IMHO.

I agree about giving them a super frame. In a national I might wire horizontally once compared to the three times I do in a 14x12 or just leave them to it with an empty frame put between two drawn frames close to the outside of the hive. I tend to put mine 2-3 frames inwards. When I used nationals I found that while super frames work, they definitely like to attach the comb to the side walls and you end up trying to clean up comb rather than inspect the hive.