Frames and foundation

[snimmo243]

Hi has anyone got any suggestions for the best place to buy frames and foundation? I normally use Thornes but they sell everything in packs of ten so in order to get eleven frames you need to buy twenty! I've done a quick comparison of the equipment I need between Thornes and Solway (who sell frames individualy) and it is almost half the price! I've not used Solway before so don't know if there is a qualitative difference?
Steven

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[drumgerry]

I've bought C Wynne Jones seconds by the 50 and been pretty pleased with the quality.

[fatshark]

You can at least save on the foundation by using foundationless frames … Jon has posted on here previously about these. The few I've tried already have been very successful. I've had mixed success with 'seconds' of frames, and vowed never to touch them again after the last lot. However, I can't resist a bargain … the 50 I picked up on Friday at the BBKA Convention from Thorne's (£27) have been built already and all were fine, a few rough edges, a couple of knots, but all perfectly useable.

Does your association have a co-op purchasing scheme? Alternatively, perhaps split a pack with a friend …

[snimmo243]

Thanks for the advice! C wynne Jones only sell in multiples of ten as well, the more I think about it the more I see these 10 packs as a con. Could someone explain a bit more about the foundationless frames

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[fatshark]

Here (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?861-Foundationless-frames-and-fishing-line) is the thread that Jon started. Here (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm) is one from Michael Bush.

I used 15kg breaking strain monofilament and it works a treat :)

[Neils]

You can just wire the frames and the bees will happily draw them out themselves. I ran frames like this for a while in my 14x12s but eventually went back to mostly foundation just to keep the drone brood all in one place making it easier to use Drone culling as part of IPM if needed.

[brothermoo]

I aim to use a lot if my frames.foundationless from now on. I see some beekeepers use hair pins (aka Bobby pins) poked through the holes the wire would go through, and these hold their foundation sheets.... I wonder would they work as well without sheets just to connect with the comb as they draw it down? They would be easier to remove for cut comb purposes is my thinking.

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[drumgerry]

On the subject of packs of ten or even fifty frames - I'm not really that bothered. I don't see frames as permanent fixtures and whenever one looks like it's past its sell by date on to the bonfire it goes. So there's always a use for the excess frames in a pack. Didn't someone say there's somewhere you can buy individual frames? If so - problem solved!

[snimmo243]

Hi drumgerry I mentioned that solway sell them individually and was asking if anyone had bought from them before. The point I was trying to make is that to buy the frames and foundation I need (2 commercial deep and 2 commercial shallow boxes) will cost around £180 buying from Thornes in multiples of ten ie yo get 22 frames I need to buy 30, compared to around £90 from solway by buying the exact number! A big difference if money is tight!

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[mbc]

Hi drumgerry I mentioned that solway sell them individually and was asking if anyone had bought from them before. The point I was trying to make is that to buy the frames and foundation I need (2 commercial deep and 2 commercial shallow boxes) will cost around £180 buying from Thornes in multiples of ten ie yo get 22 frames I need to buy 30, compared to around £90 from solway by buying the exact number! A big difference if money is tight!

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50 of each from C Wynne Jones for £75 plus vat, a big difference if you are tight ;)

[snimmo243]

50 of each from C Wynne Jones for £75 plus vat, a bid difference if you are tight ;)

Sorry I should have been more clear that those prices include foundation

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[drumgerry]

I take it those are first quality frames Snimmo? I only buy seconds to be honest. Don't see the need to have ultra perfect frames with lovely straight grain. The stuff with knots burns just the same a couple/few years down the line ;) I do however buy the premium foundation from Thornes though it galls me to pay their prices. Need to get one of those foundation presses methinks!

[snimmo243]

Yes they are firsts, the unit price is almost the exact same it's just that you don't have to buy the extra frames and foundation

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[prakel]

Ths may be a little 'off the wall' for some people's taste but you could consider making the eleventh frame yourself, nothing complex, just a simple 'stick frame'. You do then need to work out a spacing method -maybe nails/screws or staples. You could even invest in a pack of those Hoffman spacers that some firms sell. The continental companies do tidy stud spacers but the postage on a small order tends to be prohibitive.

Back to the frames, they consist of 4 appropriate lengths of timber nailed together, don't have photos on this computer of full size frames but here's an example of the design type we use in our mating nucs (with one of the many spacing methods we tried out -configuration on this one is actually wrong as two spacers on each face of the frame tends to result in 'catching' when removing/replacing. We learn by trying these things out:).

Not pretty for sure, but they work and they've saved a fair bit of money over the last few years.

1971

[Black Comb]

Or, run 10 and a dummy board.
Or, put in one super frame and use it to cull drone brood as part of IPM.

[snimmo243]

Hi Parkel those frames look good, they are similar to the ones I inherited second hand when I first started out. This is also a similar to Yates ideas on frames. Unfortunately due to my inability to measure accurately or cut with any type of precision I will forever be a hostage to the ten pack :$ if I attempted something like that it would turn out a parallelogram with six inch nails half hammered in at jaunty angles

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[prakel]

lol, must admit you can always tell the difference between those made by my very exacting nephew and the ones I myself put together, but they all work!

[Mellifera Crofter]

Or, run 10 and a dummy board. ...

That's a good idea. I prefer to run all my brood boxes with at least one dummy frame - sometimes two or more. Makes inspections so much easier.
Kitta

[Little_John]

That's a good idea. I prefer to run all my brood boxes with at least one dummy frame - sometimes two or more. Makes inspections so much easier.
Kitta

It's interesting how much variation is possible in beekeeping matters ... :)
For some time now, I've been running 12 frames in my National Broods - the girls seem much happier with the slightly tighter spacing (34.5mm). During inspections, it's necessary to pull the first one out ever-so-slowly - other than that, no probs.

LJ

[Mellifera Crofter]

It's interesting how much variation is possible in beekeeping matters ... :)
... ever-so-slowly ..

Interesting, yes. It's that 'ever-so-slowly' that bothers me, LJ!

[Rosie]

I run with 12 until I get a frame of drone brood drawn. At that stage I take one out and put extra wide spacers on the drone frame.

[Little_John]

Huber's observation was that 1 1/4" (32mm) was the correct spacing - so if he'd been running Nationals instead of his 'leaf hive', he'd have put 13 frames in 'em ! :)

[brothermoo]

Huber didn't have 5.4mm foundation though. The bigger the cells the wider the spacing between combs
I'll stick with jamming as many hoffman frames as fit, there are more frames in my box than fingers on my hands so I get lost :D

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[fatshark]

there are more frames in my box than fingers on my hands so I get lost :D

Stick to nucs ... the perfect solution for the digitally challenged :)

[jaywy]

I started as i meant to go on and made my own very rough frames out of old pallets, nothing fancy, tacked together with old panel pins etc, a little bit of foundation to start. All of these frames i use for brood etc in the two bottom bee boxes. i used old aluminium nails for spacers. It all works well. moving them around for splits etc they stay in the two bottom boxes On top of that is the queen excluder then the really good frames in the supers. this is because they take a bit of stick in the spinner. I feel that a lot of equipment is like fishing tackle,,,,its there to catch the fisherman. You really do not need good looking planed cedar etc, In the good frames in the supers i buy and fix very thin modelling plywood with a coating of wax, dont bother with fancy foundation. it all works for me and it does not cost a fortune.