Using invertase

[sbamember2014]

I read various reports of inverting sucrose using vinegar, lemon juice or cream of tartar and have decided not to use any of these as opinion seems to vary so much.
However is there any problem with using a few drops of the enzyme invertase. I have bought a small bottle and want to be sure that there is no problems.

John Baker

[Rosie]

Sounds like a good idea to me but how would you know if and when it has worked?

[Little_John]

Why bother inverting with anything ? The bees can do that perfectly well on their own, with the enyzmes that nature gave 'em.:)

[Black Comb]

Or just buy some ambrosia or Apisuc and it's been done for you.

[Rosie]

Why bother inverting with anything ? The bees can do that perfectly well on their own, with the enyzmes that nature gave 'em.:)
That's an interesting point LJ. I remember an association secretary once saying that overfeeding is not a problem because if the excess sugar stores are moved into the supers in the spring it will be inverted and would not be distinguishable from honey. However, we know that trading standards can detect sucrose and high sucrose honeys such as borage should not be mixed with other types because the resultant high sucrose honey can be mistaken for adulteration. How much inversion are the bees really capable of? Does anyone know?

[rogerb]

I looked into using invertase some time ago and can see no reason why it would not work, as an industrial process they use lots of the enzyme and I think some heat, but in that case time is money. For us, where time is less important, then using minimal amounts of enzyme and lots of time would be a good way to go economically, but what proportions of which would be effective I do not know.

The issues as I see them are;
Feed inverted sugar to your bees and they will be all the better for having an easy and directly palatable source of food.
For this you can pay the makers of ambrosia 5 times the price of sugar in order to help your poor bees.
Or make your own inverted sugar by the use of invertase.

So, until I win the lottery, for me understanding the desire to make your own is not rocket science.

As such if anyone out there is enlightened and bright enough to make their own inverted sugar and then tell dullards like me how to do it then they will have done a great service to bees and beekeepers, though the makers of ambrosia may be a bit ticked…….. Good luck John and I do hope you’ll share your findings with us (or with me anyway), and in answer to your original question I don’t think the enzyme can do the bees any harm after all it is what they make and use themselves.

[Little_John]

[QUOTE=rogerb;24404Feed inverted sugar to your bees and they will be all the better for having an easy and directly palatable source of food. [/QUOTE]

"Honey, which is mostly fructose and glucose, did not sustain caged worker bees as long as did sucrose syrup (Barker and Lehner, 1973). Nevertheless, many beekeepers consider honey to be an ideal food for bees in spite of the risks of spreading disease with it.
Consequently, table sugar that has been hydrolyzed to invert syrup containing glucose and fructose is often fed to bees. Justification for this practice is not based upon nutritional data but on an assumption that hydrolysis aids digestion. Syrups are convenient to feed, and hydrolysis reduces granulations in syrup. Also, robbing may be less of a problem with inverted sugar because glucose and fructose become less attractive than sucrose when bees reach foraging age (Barker and Lebner, 1974c). Although the inverted sugar tastes sweeter to man, it is no more attractive than sucrose to bees."

'Considerations in Selecting Sugars for Feeding to Honey Bees', ROY J. BARKER,
U. S. Dept. of Agriculture, Bee Research Laboratory.
In 'American Bee Journal', February, 1977.


Even if it were true that inverted sugar is more easily digested by bees, that would only apply to fully inverted sugar - i.e. honey. Whereas most beekeepers only partially invert their syrup - which, to my mind, is completely pointless. So why is it done ? I'd suggest beekeepers feed partially inverted syrup, because other beekeepers feed partially inverted syrup, and for no other reason.

[Little_John]

That's an interesting point LJ. I remember an association secretary once saying that overfeeding is not a problem because if the excess sugar stores are moved into the supers in the spring it will be inverted and would not be distinguishable from honey. However, we know that trading standards can detect sucrose and high sucrose honeys such as borage should not be mixed with other types because the resultant high sucrose honey can be mistaken for adulteration. How much inversion are the bees really capable of? Does anyone know?

That (the bit in BOLD) is certainly not always the case. I've seen bees move fondant, for example, and deposit it in cells without having digested it first (i.e. it remained white in colour). Presumably the same could be true of excess sucrose ? If so, then that would explain how sucrose can remain non-inverted and thus detectable.

[Little_John]

if anyone out there is enlightened and bright enough to make their own inverted sugar and then tell dullards like me how to do it then they will have done a great service to bees and beekeepers.

I'm not sure WHY you want to do this - but it's simple enough:

All inverted sugar syrups are created from hydrolyzing sucrose to glucose (dextrose) and fructose by heating a sucrose solution, then relying on time alone, with the catalytic properties of an acid or enzymes used to speed the reaction. Commercially prepared acid catalysed solutions are neutralized when the desired level of inversion is reached.

Inverted sugar syrup can be made by adding approx. one gram of citric acid or ascorbic acid per kilogram of sugar. Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram) or fresh lemon juice (10 milliliters per kilogram) may also be used.

The mixture is boiled for 20 minutes at a temperature of 114 °C (237 °F), which will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.

[rogerb]

Hi Little_John,

Thanks for the thought and info, but not that simple (sadly), you get some nasty’s by the use of heat that can get into your bees (often not too much of a problem) and into your honey, which is a big problem if you get inspected, given that we sell a premium product bad press is not a good idea.

The use of invertase is a much better idea as it is more controllable but needs to be studied to get it right, it is incidentally what the manufacturers of the bee feeds use, so that should give us a clue. Oh and if it gets into your honey it cannot be identified as not being honey, so it cannot get you into trouble.

I do agree that the jury is out on whether this is all necessary (I currently use T&L mixed with water in the old way), but there is no doubt that if you do the enzymic work for the bees all they have to do is store it, dry it (but much less than the T&L mix) and cap it. Thereby if you are late getting organised, as you may well be if you have been to the heather, then this could be very useful, and there are a lot of guys out there that use nothing else and they get good results.

Another interesting idea is that table sugar can be inverted by mixing it with honey and water and leaving the naturally occurring invertase in the honey to do the job for you, seems a waste of honey (given its value is so high) but this might appeal as long as you have enough of your own to spare, I would not advocate using anyone else’s as the risk of disease transfer is too high.

[Rosie]

Normal Carreck does not post on here but I remember him posting elsewhere some years ago about the difference between beet and cane sugar. He said that scientific tests done (I think in the 40's) showed that bees overwinter on table sugar better than they do on honey and that both types of table sugar gave the same results. Since then I have found that beet sugar dissolves more readily than cane so it's been my preference for feeding ever since although I usually feed whatever is cheapest at the time.

Very illuminating post by Little_John (#7) by the way. I have always wondered where the evidence was that expensive invert sugar is better than table sugar. I was shot down once for daring to question the value of invert sugar after admitting that I was not an expert. I suspect someone feared consequences on their profit margin.

[Little_John]

Rosie - overnight I've realised there may be some misunderstanding in what I wrote earlier. When I said that bees can invert sucrose on their own perfectly well - I was really referring to the digestion process, rather than the storage process.

You see, invertase is present in the cells of just about every living thing: certainly in the cells of mammals, insects, yeasts, and even the mitochondria of plants - rice being a good example. Providing the organism can get the sucrose into it's body's cells somehow, it will then be metabolised thus:

http://i57.tinypic.com/dpikg1.png

However, honeybees - on their way back to the hive - have the ability to add invertase to the nectar they have collected in their 'nectar sac' - but this isn't going down the full metabolic route into the Kreb's Cycle, and so forth, like the digested sucrose does - it stays in the sac, only proceeding to the point of inversion:

http://i57.tinypic.com/63u0kk.png

The rest you probably know well enough: the nectar is regurgitated, more invertase is added by the saliva of worker bees as they begin to store and dehydrate the nectar, and thus honey is formed.

So in the honeybee there are two completely separate mechanisms at work as to how the invertase is being deployed. But interestingly, sometimes these can 'join forces', as it were, for if a honeybee unexpectedly finds itself short of energy on the flight back to the hive, a valve between the nectar sac and the ventriculus opens allowing nectar to pass into the stomach, where digestive invertase plays it's rather more universal role towards the releasing of energy from the complex sugars found in nectar.

Hope this clarifies my earlier comment. :)

LJ

[Rosie]

Thanks LJ. Presumably the reason for the first stage in their honey sac and subsequent handling is so that they can concentrate the sugars more without them crystallising in storage. If so I wonder how they get away with storing high percentage sucrose after feeding with table sugar.

[rogerb]

Very interesting and informative discourse Little_John, many thanks.

[sbamember2014]

Boiling sugar, using cream of tartar, vinegar and lemon juice all seem to have problems.
There must be an optimum temperature for invertase to work (sucrase the animal enzyme, works best around 40 degrees C). The theory behind using invertase, besides being natural, is that the bee does not have to provide this heat energy to invert sucrose if the break-down products are offered.
How to analyse the results (in terms of the inversion) I do not know at this time.

John B

[rogerb]

55 to 60 degees C is best, the invertase reaction is exothermic so actually it will warm the bees whilst they do it.

[EK.Bee]

Would there be a concern over reheating the syrup to 114 deg for 20 minutes & the additional HMFs that would result ?
I take it this is how the commercial stuff is concocted.
As a beginner a couple of people have been telling me horror stories about invert syrup despatching colonies
Does anyone know if Apisuc etc test the produce for HMF levels before it is released for sale?

[The Drone Ranger]

Thought I might resurrect this this thread as most people will have been feeding recently and I read this quite amusing web page
Quite sensibly it argues only reason for buying inverted syrup is to save making sugar syrup and its slightly more saturated
Other than that it's just an expensive cleverly marketed white elephant it seems
http://www.bbka.org.uk/local/slough-windsor-maidenhead/articles/ambrosia-schmosia---stephen-jones.shtml

Incidentally the NBU implies the same in their feeding guide
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/downloadNews.cfm?id=121

Personally I can't afford (or perhaps grudge paying) it so I was glad the sugar price was so low this year and spent September stirring away

The 2:1 sugar/water causes confusion every year because it was established using 2 pounds sugar and 1 pint water which unlike metric units are not related in weight
So transferring this as a ratio of 2 Kg sugar to 1 ltr of water doesn't work, and although by using very hot water the sugar will dissolve, the solution is over saturation at lower temperatures and crystals form which block your contact feeder

If you are using 5Kg bags then a good way to remember the ratio is 5kg to 3.142 ltr (5 pi) thats how I remember it anyway
Ours are all wrapped up snug and cosy now
Varroa treatment next stop :)

[Honeybunch]

This is a beautifully clear presentation. Thank you for going to so much trouble, Little John

[Calluna4u]

Thought I might resurrect this this thread as most people will have been feeding recently and I read this quite amusing web page
Quite sensibly it argues only reason for buying inverted syrup is to save making sugar syrup and its slightly more saturated
Other than that it's just an expensive cleverly marketed white elephant it seems
http://www.bbka.org.uk/local/slough-windsor-maidenhead/articles/ambrosia-schmosia---stephen-jones.shtml

Incidentally the NBU implies the same in their feeding guide
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/downloadNews.cfm?id=121

Personally I can't afford (or perhaps grudge paying) it so I was glad the sugar price was so low this year and spent September stirring away

Can of worms there indeed.

First point is the price. When it leaves the plant where it is produced it leaves at a very reasonable price. The problem is multi level marketing. Many margins tween producer and consumer. (All main brands do it enzymatically btw as its cheaper to do it that way. Rumours of 50yo outmoded acid inversion and high temps etc are just negative marketing largely originating with one supplier). More than one person on here knows the real price, delivered, as they come here to get it from me.
Don't even go there if you are suggesting I am promoting the product for profit because that is nonsense. I only supply it to friends and a few others who come here basically at cost. I do not like seeing people being overcharged any more than you do.

Way back when we first experimented with invert syrups it was very clear from the way the bees reacted to them that these were superior products to plain sugar syrup.

If you are happy to have to mix all your syrup, have to finish feeding early, have untaken syrup ferment, and all to favour a home made product that we have proven internally to be less good, then fine.

Personally I prefer the following:-

Plump fit looking bees with a gloss of health about them going into winter.
A syrup that can lie unused in the feeder with no biological activity going on in it and the bees can take it, without water content or ripening issues, any open day in winter (must post some pics of bees taking syrup from a hive top Ashforth feeder on NYD 2015).
No waste.
No extra labour. (Yesterday the tanker was here. 25 tonnes ready in tanks to go out in 40 minutes.)
Can be retained in bulk almost indefinitely for use when needed.
Clusters noticeably cleaner in winter. Dysentry is a thing of the past. ( Doubtful? You are welcome to come and see for yourself.)
Lower cost. (yes, take all costs and wastage into consideration and it works out marginally cheaper.......hasten to add that is not true at some of the exorbitant retail price points I have seen)

I really do not care what the odd spurious paper says. Many of these originate from someone wanting to prove a point or generate something semi scientific to support their OPINION. Too much opinion and too few facts dominate in our trade/craft. We have proven it to our own satisfaction in side by side tests, using various brands of invert syrup, home made syrup, and leaving their own honey, and would not go back to home made syrup, even if it WERE significantly cheaper.

All the leading brands are excellent products and any negative marketing against some of them should be ignored, in particular the yeasts and moulds data offered by a UK vendor of one product, as even the worst of those is less than 1% of the levels in honey, so is just an artificially created point of difference. Api-invert, Ambrosia, InvertBee. All are superb sugar derived products and your bees will respond well to their use. If pressed which is best I would suggest they are almost identical in performance but if they were all available at my gate at the same price I would possibly choose Api invert. However the differences are so minor that it comes down to price between the three. Apisuc is a cereal derived product that we found no performance difference with, but due to the very reasonable price of the sugar derived products right now there is no need to take Apisuc.

(old post from EK Bee asks about Hmf.....so far as I know all batches are tested for hmf......and you get a batch specific lab certificate supplied...if required...with every tankerload. Reference samples drawn from the bulk in also taken at discharge and sealed, one goes back to the production plant, the other stays with us. I could feed a few hives with all the little sample tubs I have here! I queried one load of Apisuc and one of Ambrosia over the years due to yellow colour on arrival, but the lab tests came back fine, specific worry was hmf but the reading was tiny, like fresh honey)

Some poorer grade syrups for feeding bees do exist. None are currently marketed in the UK as far as I know. At one place in Spain, and another in Belgium, I saw a blended syrup being produced. Mixing normal sugar syrup with invert syrup. Not seen these blends sold here, but they were very cost effective ptions, being mid way between invert and white sugar in price (by dry weight).

[gavin]

Perhaps one thing to add to this is that the liquid sucrose option - which you can buy in bulk if you want - isn't feasible given that it has a shelf life of two weeks. Those who prefer to buy liquid feed for ease of handling need their sugar inverted for that reason, never mind what does the bees good and what they prefer.

> Can of worms

Are you sayin' that worms make diastase too? ;)

Thanks for your edits, Duncan. Duncan did make the point that honeys contaminated with sugar feed are detectable due to a low diastase activity. Eight Schade units (a measure of the ability to digest starch) is normal for fresh, unheated honey.

And yes, the mark-up as bee feed gets sold on is quite remarkable. Thanks C4U :). If I was still a garden scale beekeeper I'd be using the dry sugar from discount retailers at 39p per kilo rather than the wet stuff still being sold at about £1 per kilo.

[The Drone Ranger]

I guess in the quantities you need C4u you would have to buy it in
I have used Ambrosia and the previous stuff Thornes sold which was made from corn syrup (that one did ferment)
Can't say I was convinced by either but glad to see you are enthusiastic about invert syrup

Ambrosia being a bit more concentrated at 73% is obviously good as the bees will have less to do to get to 85%
Fondant is even more concentrated but I suppose the bees need water to make best use of that

Sugar was about 57pence/Kg this year from supermarket delivered free

Fondabee from Paynes is £4 for 2.5kg so about £1.60/kg

Can't say what the fill your own container price at Thornes is at moment because don't know( the fuel cost of driving there and back needs factored in)
Delivered Invert syrup is £20 for 5ltr that's £4 /ltr and at 73% that's £5.47 per kg
If you buy Thornes 25kg it could be £3.29 /Kg ?

Appreciate the point about middle men and adding cost and that's why on a small scale it doesn't make sense to buy Ambrosia now

[gavin]

Sugar was about 57pence/Kg this year from supermarket delivered free


Currently 39p/kg at Aldi - http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/granulated-sugar-1kg-39p-aldi-2304593

Farmfoods has been advertising at that price since winter but I'm not sure if they still are.

[mbc]

I feed just over a ton of sugar - mixed up at home- and disagree about the comparable price, my ton of dry sugar being much cheaper than I could get a ton of ambrosia etc.

[fatshark]

Interesting price comparisons. I'm a fondant-only user and didn't need any this year as I bought in bulk in 2014 (at a higher price ... D'oh!). Our BKA was selling it at £9.45/12.5kg in 2014, a bit less this year. As DR states, the bees will probably need water to process it. However, there might well be enough on the sidewalls and crown board of the hive? (I'm sure someone smarter than me could work how much they need). I added single blocks of fondant in mid-September and all colonies have finished these, with a few getting another half block. With the weather turning a week or so ago they've slowed right down and I'll be removing any remaining in the next few days. For the (rank) amateur I reckon fondant offers a good mix of value and ease of use. It also stores really well.

[The Drone Ranger]

That's a good price for fondant Fatshark
I was under the impression that Ambrosia fondant was inverted sugar or special in some way, but somebody on another forum straightened me out and said its just plain old fondant, identical to the fondant sold by bakery suppliers in bigger blocks
Is that the case ?

[gavin]

BFP Wholesale's Bakers Fondant was £8 something for 12.5kg when I bought some last early spring.

> Is that the case ?

Near enough.

The Beekeeping Forum have this helpful, knowledgeable guy called 'into the lion's den'. We have one called Calluna4U, and I'm very grateful for that :).

Three and a half years ago he wrote this:

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-15715.html

'Ambrosia is a fondant. Can't see the point of paying it's price as making your own is easy if you only have a few hives.

Ambrosia is actually just a collective brand name for the various bee feed products produced by Nordzucker in Germany.

They have syrups, fondants, and powders.

Similarly the bigger brother and market leader in the trade, Sudzucker, make Apiinvert, Apifonda,and Apipuder.

Other sugar companies have a similar assortment. Most fondant is made by Sudzucker or their subsidiaries, or by Belgosuc, and just packaged in the branding of other companies. (I have visited two plants in Belgium, one of which is a Sudzucker plant making most of the fondant brands sold in the UK which you might think to be British makes, and seen that happening) The difference between Ambrosia fondant and Apifonda, at least at the time I visited the plant, was nothing more than which roll of plastic preprinted film they had on the machine.

The specialist bee fondants do vary slightly from the standard bakers fondant, being manufactured in such a way as to have a smaller crystal size. the theory is that this aids direct ingestion rather than reconstitue to liquid then ingest. The way in which we feed fondant in this country, and the climate, probably mean that the extra money is not worth paying. ( have used many tonnes over the years of standard bakers white fondant and special formula types............not a scrap of a difference )

Getting a box or two of white fondant from your local bakery, or from their wholesaler, is the easiest and usually most economic way to go for small purchasers. Making it yourself? Well their are plenty of anecdotes about it being just as good, but I remain unconvinced of this. Hmf in home made product is always a risk, and hmf is toxic to bees, albeit that in fondant it will be at modest levels. Bees will tolerate it and prosper most seasons, but, if it ever does, your trouble will come in a cold winter with a long period with no flight.'

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks Gavin
I am not allowed to make anything like fondant etc in our kitchen since the time I manufactured my own sodium acetate
It's the stuff in hand warmers
The idea was to have a thin bag between two layers of the plastic wax containing sodium acetate
When its triggered it rapidly goes to 50C which would kill varroa but the bee larva can survive this temp
The stuff stays warm for about an hour or so

Anyway with two captured varroa in a container and a hand sprayer containing water at 80C I had worked out the distance and tested that the water would be at 45C after leaving the spray nozzle and reaching the varroa

Sprayed them -- they died -- big cheer -- small funeral service
Half an hour later they were alive again
Fury --- garlic -- failure followed by a stake through their undead hearts

The` sodium acetate involved reducing a large quantity of vinegar and baking soda to crystals by boiling
Admittedly a bit pungent but hey this is science

[fatshark]

£8.?? is a great price. Nice one. Is it stored somewhere local?

Great story DR ... here's a way (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500g-Sodium-Acetate-trihyrate-99-with-hot-ice-instruction-/140426964157?hash=item20b2196cbd:g:JzsAAOSwPcVVmiE G) to save your marriage (totally safe for work).

I fear my kitchen bee exploits are over as the fitters are here at the moment installing all sorts of new shiny things :(

[Feckless Drone]

I fear my kitchen bee exploits are over as the fitters are here at the moment installing all sorts of new shiny things :(

Nah! We know you have a shed now.

[The Drone Ranger]

Nah! We know you have a shed now.

I have a shed as well :)
It's not a bee shed though except in the sense of storing all the gear in it

[Calluna4u]

I feed just over a ton of sugar - mixed up at home- and disagree about the comparable price, my ton of dry sugar being much cheaper than I could get a ton of ambrosia etc.

My supplier.....currently Belgosuc..........has made me promise not to circulate the price I get their product for.

A clue could be that I was offered the Nordzucker equivalent product.....Ambrosia.........at a shade over £500 a tonne...so 50p a kilo.

The other product was a smidgin more than a shade cheaper than Ambrosia..

Last fondant I bought was 7.65 per 12.5Kg block. Sometimes we need to buy the far more expensive 2.5Kg prepacked stuff as it is ideal for certain jobs. Sugar has become cheaper since then and I understand that in a pallet amount it will be under 7 pounds (a fair bit under) this year.

Many of you need to get your acts together and do association purchases (if you dont already) and go as far back up the supply chain as you can. The very idea of paying way over 1.00 per kg for syrup gives me the collywobbles.

Mind you, the same applies to frames wax and all manner of consumables and hardware. Gang up and shop around, and forget this British disease of being cussedly different about hives etc. Large uniform markets equals better volumes at the maker and lower prices. British diversity (and fussy perfectionism) equals very small production runs and high, or even stratospheric, prices.

For interested LOCALS.....come along with your own containers and you can have invert from me at whatever the price of the load was plus a small amount for handling as I am paying the wages of the people working here. Current collected rate with your own containers is 58p per kilo. Has been up to 80p in the past.

You all know who calluna4u is and where you can find me.

Also....to compare sugar made from white sugar and commercial invert syrup you also have to take into account any manufacturing losses, electricity if any, containers, losses from fermentation, and the percentage lost in conversion from pure sucrose syrup, and in our case, staff wages (most amateurs value their time at zero). Finally you come to logistics, we would have real problems getting it all done in time AND your window to use the stuff is a good couple of weeks longer.


To admin;- This is NOT a commercial posting. I am not seeking to make money from selling syrup, its pretty much an 'at cost' exercise to help others.

[gavin]

To admin;- This is NOT a commercial posting. I am not seeking to make money from selling syrup, its pretty much an 'at cost' exercise to help others.

I know :).

[EK.Bee]

You forgot to mention the relationship stress costs of spilling syrup on cookers,work surfaces & flooring or using a recycled container that sprung a leak in the hall :)

[Mellifera Crofter]

I agree! Over the summer I prepared some sugar syrup for nucs and poured it into a plastic milk bottle to carry to the apiary. It fell out of my hands in the kitchen and burst open like an exploding bomb: sugar syrup splattered everywhere right up to the ceiling. A nightmare to clean up!
Kitta

[Calluna4u]

You forgot to mention the relationship stress costs of spilling syrup on cookers,work surfaces & flooring or using a recycled container that sprung a leak in the hall :)

Lol ....at least that's one thing I don't need to worry about. No-one to give me the ear damage.

[The Drone Ranger]

I agree! Over the summer I prepared some sugar syrup for nucs and poured it into a plastic milk bottle to carry to the apiary. It fell out of my hands in the kitchen and burst open like an exploding bomb: sugar syrup splattered everywhere right up to the ceiling. A nightmare to clean up!
Kitta

Open the doors and let the bees in ?
second thoughts maybe not

I make most mess extracting honey

Ron Brown wrote in one of his books about making syrup and said rather than hot water just use cold and stir every hour or so till dissolved
haven't tried that due to laziness but with a slow stirring mechanism could be an easy route Apparently car wiper motors are a possibility ?