Top bee space

[nemphlar]

After 28 years was persuaded to try a beekeeping course, always a pleasant night listening to bee chatter. I think I,ve discovered why bottom bee space prevails in the uk and nowhere else in the world. Beginners are advised that if they want buy a nucleus in the UK they had had better buy a national.

[Black Comb]

I agree.
My association teaches only with nationals.

I started on nationals but hate double brood so went over to langstroth. Fortuneately I bought very cheap second hand nats.so wasn't too difficult.

[brecks]

After 28 years was persuaded to try a beekeeping course, always a pleasant night listening to bee chatter. I think I,ve discovered why bottom bee space prevails in the uk and nowhere else in the world. Beginners are advised that if they want buy a nucleus in the UK they had had better buy a national.

I agree, starters are pushed towards bottom beespace hives and then find it expensive to change to the superior top bee space.

[nemphlar]

Sorely tempted to try langstroth, how do they fit with the darker bees?

[beejazz]

Nationals can be set up as top bee space, I believe, but why is top bee space superior to bottom bee space?

[brecks]

Nationals can be set up as top bee space, I believe, but why is top bee space superior to bottom bee space?

Bees are much more likely to be squashed when putting supers back on a bottom bee space hive.

[gavin]

Bees are much more likely to be squashed when putting supers back on a bottom bee space hive.

Or squashed in a place you can see them, and therefore more able to be ushered off the squashable areas by the careful beekeeper?

Conversely, the squashing done by the top space beekeeper is just less visible (and therefore more likely to take place)?

Go on - persuade me otherwise!

[Blackcavebees]

I like driving on the right hand side of the road. I just do. It's fine if I'm in Spain or USA or on my own land or up in hills with noone about. But majority of time I do what everyone else does, I drive on the left when in UK. It's safer for one thing.

Beekeepers are an individualistic bunch, aren't we? On our own ground we'll do what we want, our own way. But if we want to buy/sell nucs and keep bees at a hobbyist or amateur level we fall into line and drive on the left at a National speed limit. Unless housing a swarm, or a shook swarm or package bees it's hard for the wee man to do anything else.

Why though is the National so popular? Tradition or is it well suited to native bees. If you just want to squish your bees without seeing it, try a smith? Are they not top bee space?

[beejazz]

Swish? squish?, aren't smiths tiddly hives?

[Rosie]

I would expect natives to adapt well to langstroths but I use bottom bee space because I know that most bees on the underside of a super will be safe when I lower it onto a flattish surface such as a roof or even a brood box. The bees at risk on the bottom space brood box are more likely to move onto the top rim than with a top space one but I have smoker lit to move them off. Also with top space supers all the frames jump out when I put the super on a roof.

My favourite arrangement is a top space brood box under bottom space supers. I then use a frameless queen excluder to give me a bee space on each side of it. I don't teach that method because examiners would frown on the idea but I if were king I would write the papers.

[The Drone Ranger]

I use the top bee space Smiths and they are big enough for UK (tiddly :) )
Easier on boot space when you move them


On the downside framed excluders are about £15
The top edge is a bit vulnerable to splitting when assembling
Thornes sell them part assembled for that reason
(Perhaps the wood is not as good as it was)

[Mellifera Crofter]

Sorely tempted to try langstroth, how do they fit with the darker bees?

If you want to change to Langstroth, then I don't think your reason for doing so should be your wish for top bee space. As we've just seen, you can argue for or against either preference with ease. I think what is more important is whether you, as beekeeper, like the shape of the frames and whether the bees like that shape in winter when they're clustered.

I prefer Nationals because the frames are easier to handle: they have long lugs and the relationship between my shoulders and the lugs are just right. With Langstroths my hands are further apart when handling a frame so weight-wise they're more difficult to handle; and when replacing a frame, my hands obscure the lugs so that I can't see whether there are bees in the way. As far as the bees are concerned, a winter cluster, I think, is better contained in a National. In a Langstroth there's all that extra space to the sides that the bees can't get to and that you can't reduce or heat with dummies. (That said, at the moment most of my Langstroth hives are doing well, while I worry about some of my Nationals.)

Kitta

[nemphlar]

I had a couple of nationals at the start but found replacing the unframed Q excluder a nuisance, and moved to the top space smiths i also found knocking up spare kit cheap and easy. Pre varroa a dark queen could fill a single brood box, haven't seen that for a few years.
I like the idea of less frames and more cells if they were able to work out of a langstroth

[snimmo243]

I'm half way through the process of converting my Smiths to commercials (with top Bee space)
Steven

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[nemphlar]

Kitta horses for courses, I personally wouldn't go back to bottom bee space hives, it seems to start with the answer then attempts to justify.
Snimmo Your probably an east coaster in terms of bee types and hives with OSR in your patch, the west probably has smaller brood. Why'd you pick the commercial

[snimmo243]

Hi nemphlar, I am east coast ish (Bathgate)I had been quite happy with smiths but last winter I lost 1 colony to isolation and my remaining colony to a drone laying queen, as I was Bee less over the summer I decided to change over to a larger brood frame in the hope of mitigating some of my issues from last winter. I chose commercial because, an eke can be made converting the Smith to commercial and conversion frames can also be made (credit to Alan Riach for the drawings and crabbitdave for building the ekes) allowing me to convert without the massive outlay of New hives

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[Black Comb]

Well,I also one nat. And the rest are langs.
The Lang. Frames just feel "right" to me. Nice short lugs and just the perfect size
Nats invariably mean double brood, more lifting, more frames to make up and the prospect of squashing more bees.
I think dark bees and standard langs. were made for each other.

[The Drone Ranger]

Here it's oil seed rape territory and in my case hybrid bees
The bees build up fast in spring there will be a fair bit of carniolan in them
But using Smith boxes and Snelgrove boards theres not much lifting to be done
Leastways until a new queen mates and gets going in the top box
Not much bee squashing either
Theres a few people on here doing the same I am sure