swarming stimuli

[Rosie]

I was just reading a thread about the stages of worker development, ie 3days, 6 days and 12 days and the fact that the proportion of eggs to open brood to sealed brood gives an indication of colony development.

It reminded me of my own swarming theory which I have not had chance to air yet, apart from to friends in my local association. I would like to bounce this off some of the readers here as I am sure a discussion will be helpful and perhaps interesting to others - even if nobody agrees with my theory!

Here goes:

It is standard thinking that if a colony has a greater proportion of, say,open brood than half the closed brood then the queen's laying rate has, during the period between 3 days and 9 days ago, been greater than it was in the previous 12 days. If there is also plenty of eggs then it shows that the colony is expanding. Now, according to my theory, one of the factors that controls expansion rate is the capacity of young workers to feed brood. If all other things are equal (weather, nectar availability etc) a colony that expands quickly suggests that its workers can produce brood food more quickly than one that expands slowly. This would explain my observation that a pure and non-prolific queen will often produce a much bigger colony and expand more quickly if the workers she produces display hybrid vigour.

Now Eddie Woods observed a droning sound that he put down to nurse bees that had nowhere to deposit their royal jelly while a queen was being slimmed down in preparation to swarm. However, my guess is that the sound is from nurse bees that are too plentiful in numbers and don't have enough open brood to feed. It does not normally happen early in the season because the queen is laying at the rate commensurate with the workers' ability to nurse. To maintain this happy state the queen needs to keep increasing her laying rate so that the colony is forever expanding.

Soon after this expansion stalls the nurses start to become redundant, start moaning about it (Eddie's drone) and swarm preparations are started. It makes perfect sense because the nurses are redundant and are a burden to the colony and probably get on everyone's wick to boot. Hence it costs nothing to bundle these trouble makers off in a swarm and get back to expansion mode again.

If my theory is right then the way to capitalise on it is to constantly rob hives of sealed brood. It limits the number of nurses available at any time and increases the number of open larvae.

In 2012 we had a terrible season. It start well but it quickly deteriorated and queens stopped laying after accelerating up to speed very quickly. It meant that the colonies had only half built up in size before they stalled. We all thought we were safe from swarming because the colonies were all so weak. We were wrong. They swarmed suddenly and caught everyone in these parts unprepared. This can be explained by my theory as the queer season resulted in plenty of young nurse bees but little or no brood to keep them occupied.

This season I have been testing my theory and am now more convinced than ever of its value. Conventional swarm prevention methods such as ensuring there is always expansion space in the hive all help to put off the day when the nurses outnumber their charges and so work until the queen reaches her maximum laying rate or the weather intervenes.

That's my theory. I hope I managed to explain it clearly although it's quite simple really.

[Black Comb]

A few thoughts.

Have you read Wisdom of the Hive by Tom Seeeley. He has some interesting observations and theories re. swarming behaviour and also noise.

In 2012 there was a warm patch in March so queens started to lay like mad, it then went cold but by then the colonies were expanding and many kept on going. when a sudden very warm snap came they took the chance to swarm as they were all full of bees. All of my colonies swarmed the same week.

Some books advise giving 50% foundation frames in first and or second super to keep the nurse bees happy in the earlier part of the season.

[Rosie]

Here they swarmed in 2012 when the weather was still poor and the colonies were still weak. It went against conventional theory and started me thinking about why it should have happened. I, too, use a lot of foundation and even more starter strips but that's to keep the nest free for eggs rather than force bees to put stores in there. It all helps but as I said in my post my theory, if true, explains why it helps.

I should have read Sealey although I must admit I haven't so thanks for pointing it out BC.

[Rosie]

I just looked up wisdom of the hive on Amazon. It's £86 so no wonder I hadn't read it.

[Beefever]

Was it Gurstung who formed the brood food theory? I while since I read about this but he thought a surplus of brood food in a colony would cause them to swarm.

[The Drone Ranger]

I just looked up wisdom of the hive on Amazon. It's £86 so no wonder I hadn't read it.
Hi Rosie
I think what we see in our own experience is more important than books

Quick question on your swarm theory
Why don't the bees divert to another task ?
I did some poking about, and one overlapping task for bees of that age is attending to the queen
Could that be a factor if too many decide to get involved in that job ?

[Jon]

If you keep taking brood away and replacing it with frames of drawn comb, as you do in a queenright cellraiser system it is extremely rare for a colony to get into swarming mode.
To me that suggests that giving the queen lots of cells to lay in probably helps, combined with moving loads of bees and brood above the queen excluder thus reducing congestion.
If you have bees with swarmy genetics it is all academic as they will try to swarm well before the brood box is full.
I know people with bees like this and I suspect it has come about through generations of making increase from swarms and from the first queen cells to appear, ie, artificially selected swarmy stock.

[Rosie]

Thanks BF. I did a bit of searching and found the following written by Wally Shaw:

"Snelgrove based his method on the Gerstung theory of swarming, which claims that swarming is the result of a colony having
an excess of nurse bees producing brood food compared with the number of larvae that need to be fed. Snelgrove knew the
theory had its detractors and retained an open-mind but still regarded it as a useful way to think about swarming. Preemptive
splitting effectively removes a lot of nurse bees from the presence of the queen and brood. The Gerstung theory was
finally disproved as a result of work by Butler and Simpson at Rothampstead in the 1950`s but, theory or no theory.,
Snelgrove`s methods still works."

My money is on Gerstung rather than Butler and Simpson. They might have been working with strains from a different environment.

DR. I suspect that at a certain age bees are more suited to feeding brood or producing royal jelly than any other task and when their instincts are frustrated they start using their excess royal jelly to fill queen cells. furthermore, when a colony has a surfeit of these bees it's an ideal time to swarm because they will not miss the bees that leave the nest.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Rosie
I use Snelgrove boards every year and have all his books
Stops swarming right through the oil seed rape period

When the brood all goes above the board they must hatch with the potential to become brood feeders
Perhaps that's why they are so happy to raise grafted queen cells

[Rosie]

I hope this is acceptable etiquette but I just found another reference on the BBKA forum.

"The brood food theory of Gerstung with regard to swarming was once accepted as correct and led to various swarm management techniques yet we now know that it really doesn't stand up to rigorous scientific scrutiny and now has only a historical significance."

It might explain why the technique does not appear in any of the BBKA courses that I have seen or the current crop of books available.

[Black Comb]

Another "fact" which seems to be accepted is that colonies are more likely to swarm when headed by older queens.
Does this fit in with your theory?

[Rosie]

It might if you accept that old queens have a lower maximum laying rate than young queens so that the colony growth stalls earlier than would be the case with a young one. To be honest though I have not noticed much difference in the swarminess of old queens as compared to young ones. I suspect, in our climate and with our countryside, there are many other things that can cause stalling before the queen's maximum laying rate is reached. That would mask the age effect and explain why some beekeeping cultures and districts (I am thinking of the US in particular) think young queens are less prone to swarming while others don't see much difference.

Hence we are taught by some to requeen annually to avoid swarming. This, in my opinion, has done a lot of damage to our stocks and is but one of many faults in conventional thinking.

[Black Comb]

I remember in 2012,irrespective of the weather, many of the more experienced were saying it would be a swarmy year because May and June 2011 were continuos poor weather and queens were not properly mated.
2012 proved them right?
After all my colonies swarmed in 2012 none swarmed in 2013.

As with all these discussions it is often 'ceteris paribus' and very often they are not.

[Neils]

At a risk of dragging it back level I'm not sure at a superficial level that the overall 'mix' of bee age makes as much difference as the overall area that the queen has to lay.

For the past couple of seasons I've been starting to experiment a little more around managing colonies, not so much with an aim to prevent/supress swarming as to boost weaker colonies.

As such I've tended to move sealed brood from stronger colonies into weaker ones and, as a result, replace full comb with empty. For a couple of seasons I've had very strong colonies 'happy' not to start swarm preparation while I continue to exchange sealed brood for empty comb. The week I stop making that room they begin to start swarm preparation. The first year I suspected this might happen, the second I was expecting it. Foundation can work, but empty comb seems to me to be much, much better unless you've got cause to swap two combs out. While I think that comb building can help, I prefer that to be happening in the supers if possible.

Running 14x12s in the balmy south I acknowledge that they're sometimes not big enough but it does make me wonder if, in the first instance, worrying too much other than ensuring there is empty comb for the queen to lay in is perhaps over thinking the 'problem'?

[Rosie]

Neils, I would have said exactly the same as you up until about 18 months ago but then I don't think I fully understood WHY the queen needed laying space. I just knew they would swarm if she ran out of it.

[GRIZZLY]

If a colony becomes "honeyed - up" leaving the queen no laying space, will they make swarming preparations ? I don't think so , so what do you think.?

[Blackcavebees]

If a colony becomes "honeyed - up" leaving the queen no laying space, will they make swarming preparations ? I don't think so , so what do you think.?

Would depend on time of year and flow, I would think.

[Rosie]

If a colony becomes "honeyed - up" leaving the queen no laying space, will they make swarming preparations ? I don't think so , so what do you think.?

I think it would depend on what had been happening previously. If they had plenty of young adults I would expect them to swarm unless it was late in the season when populations naturally decline and workers are starting to reserve their powers for the winter.

[mbc]

Not wishing to burst anyones bubble but isnt all of this being viewed arse about face ? The raison d' etre of the colony is to swarm.

[The Drone Ranger]

Sometimes it's external factors
Oil seed rape Bonanaza rapid colony growth - lets swarm
Then oil seed rape disappears not happy - lets swarm

[Jon]

Not wishing to burst anyones bubble but isnt all of this being viewed arse about face ? The raison d' etre of the colony is to swarm.

Not always. There are some which are happy to supersede after 2 or 3 years without ever making swarm preparations.

[GRIZZLY]

I agree with DR. bees will often swarm at the cessation of a nectar flow. The only swarm I had this year was a colony I had just fetched back home from the rape fields, They swarmed within 2 hours of being placed on their stand and before I had a chance of an examination.

[mbc]

Not always. There are some which are happy to supersede after 2 or 3 years without ever making swarm preparations.

I dispute the "without ever", those dice are loaded for doom.

I really enjoyed Willie Robsons description of "repletes" in his delightful little book, Reflections on beekeeping ( hardly a well written, flowing narrative, but full of experience and bee wisdom). The repletes are the same bees Rosie describes here "redundant and are a burden to the colony", I know which description helps my often constipated brain have a more positive flow of understanding.

[Rosie]

Thanks mbc. That's yet another book I haven't read so I just ordered it. While idly searching for reviews I came across this:

http://www.irishbeekeeping.ie/articles/wrobson1002.html

A lovely little talk by Willie.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks for that Rosie
very enjoyable read

[Blackcavebees]

Yes, I enjoyed Willie's insight, a good read

[Neils]

Neils, I would have said exactly the same as you up until about 18 months ago but then I don't think I fully understood WHY the queen needed laying space. I just knew they would swarm if she ran out of it.
Re-reading your original post, it's something I've read in a few places and not something that I necessarily have an argument against. In many respects space vs spread of bees goes hand in hand.

I still think that having bees building wax is generally a "good thing" when it comes to swarm prevention and I think it follows a similar logic. Lots of "bored" house bees with nothing to do possibly means that it is time to move on.

[busybeephilip]

My bees often supersede in the autumn and you sometimes find a box with two laying queens in the spring, later, the old Q usually becomes one of the "disappeared" never to be seen again.

Swarming is controlled by simply raising the brood over a queen2 board / sengrove or similar on first sign of larvae in cell cups. After the flying bees have rejoined the Q in the lower box the top box can be split for nucs or moved to a new stand if you want a stronger new colony. You can let them raise new queens from the existing swarm cells or introduce grafted queen cells or a new queen of known quality, its personal preferance and depends on your set up. This works for me and I don't loose a precious honey crop due to bees swarming