Overwintering - too much food?

[walkhighlands]

Hi there

I'm a fairly new beekeeper - started last year. Currently have two hives and a nuc which are preparing for overwintering.

The question is - I have 1 hive where - as of today's inspection - there is no brood / eggs / larvae. However the bees are calm, and the reason for this is probably simply the amount of stores. The hive is full of bees, and all 10 frames are full of stores. I suspect the queen is probably still present given the no. of bees - there were eggs when the hive was opened in late august and there is no sign of empty queen cells, so I think it is just rammed with stores.

Is this a problem at this time of year - or can I just leave them to get on with overwintering? It seems too late to really do much about it, though I suppose I could put a drawn super on it if this meant they would move some stores in time for brood, and overwinter as a brood and a half. But probably too late for such action?

If leaving it as is is a reasonable option, I'd rather do that. If it is a big problem, maybe I should be cutting down the feeding of our other hive and nuc (both of which still have some brood still at the moment)

Cheers for your help
Paul

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Paul
yes they have too much
Are there frames empty in your other hive?
If so swap two frames of stores for two empty frames and stop feeding
As they concentrated any uncapped stores there will be a little more space
If not then give them the super and the queen will lay there if she needs to

[Jon]

A brood nest at this time of year in a decent colony should cover 5-6 frames and my bees are native type which are supposed to have a smaller broodnest than Carnica, Buckfast or Ligustica.
My 6 frame nucs have 2-4 frames with brood at the moment.
I find the broodnest even grows a little at this time of year as well as the ivy has just started to flower and there is an abundance of pollen.
You definitely need to give the queen room to lay and I would suggest removing maybe 4 frames of stores rather than two but removing two would be a lot better than doing nothing.
A colony needs young bees produced in autumn to overwinter.

How much sugar did you feed? It must have been a lot as a full brood frame weighs about 5lbs.
I started feeding mine last week and on average I feed 5 or 6 kilos of sugar to a colony to supplement what they already have.
I often end up removing several frames of stores in April but better safe than sorry.
I heft or inspect and stop feeding once the colony has a decent weight.
A lot of people seem to feed from the middle of August and I think that is far too early.

There seem to be a lot of people posting on the bee forums advising FEED FEED FEED often accompanied with a statement such as 'they wont take it if they don't need it.' This is rubbish advice but you come across it all the time. Bees will take what they are offered and completely pack out the brood box.

I once came across a colony on double brood in May which had 22 frames of capped stores and a brood nest the size of an orange. The guy still had the feeder on and was worried about his bees starving.

[mbc]

A brood nest at this time of year in a decent colony should cover 5-6 frames and my bees are native type which are supposed to have a smaller broodnest than Carnica, Buckfast or Ligustica.
My 6 frame nucs have 2-4 frames with brood at the moment.
.

I think there must be quite a bit of local variation with this as many of my big production colonies have little or no brood right now ( I do expect them to lay up a frame or two in the next week or two with the coming good weather and ivy flowering).
In contrast, all the nucs with new queens are eager to build numbers and do still have a brood nest.

[Jon]

MBC
I would hazard a guess yours still have space for the queens to lay several frames of eggs should they see fit.
It is important to leave that option open.
I am happy if mine have 30lbs of stores going into winter which still leaves plenty of space for a brood nest.
Are yours at altitude by any chance? Maybe conditions are a bit more harsh.

Edit.
And now that you mention it most of mine are 2013 queens as I requeened most of mine this year.

[mbc]

Yes, my bees have space, in fact they're mostly erring on the light side for comfort at the mo.
I do still have some at altitude and its becoming a pressing concern to get those down and any heather honey off before it gets contaminated by ivy nectar (which, to my mind, can easily spoil a near pure crop of ling heather honey), but the majority arent too far from sea level.
Younger queens will maintain more of a nest (unnecessarily ?)than the more experienced girls.

[Jon]

Personally, I like to see mine producing young bees well into October.
The heavy losses we had in NI last winter were in part due to older bees not lasting to the end of an exceptionally long winter - which lasted until some time in April.

[fatshark]

Like Jon I like to see new brood being produced late into the season. All the better for overwintering. I've noticed this year that about 80% of the colonies I've checked with Apiguard on have stopped laying altogether. I can't help but feel that - although necessary to get rid of those pesky mites - it happens at just the wrong time as far as getting a strong colony into the winter. I prefer to feed fondant as they take it down much more slowly and almost always have ample space for the queen to lay. My colonies have had 12kg of fondant on for a fortnight and the strongest have only taken down about 4kg so far. Lots of pollen coming in which is always good to see ... not ivy as I don't think it's flowering yet.

[Jon]

The ivy has just started to open here and seems to be covered in hoverflies and wasps more than honeybees.
That is a good point made about the fondant in that it is taken down more slowly than syrup.
Peter Edwards makes the same point in relation to leaving the queen room to keep laying.
He puts the block of fondant above the brood box inside a super used as an eke.
I remember posting a link to one of his photos to a thread here recently.
The problem with syrup is that it is often fed in large quantities at the wrong time and the brood box fills very quickly.

[mbc]

On the other hand syrup emulates nectar and can kick start queens into lay far more effectively than fondant, and I've never seen a colony suddenly bounce forwards given some fondant and this definitely happens with a timely syrup feed, plus fondant costs more.

[Jon]

MBC
I have nothing against syrup.
I feed a couple of hundred litres of it every autumn.
The problem is feeding too much of it at the wrong time, ie too early.

I also like to have a few boxes of fondant handy.

[walkhighlands]

OK many thanks for all the advice.

We didn't have any spare drawn brood empty frames in the other hives (have now removed the feed from the other hive and nuc which otherwise were going the same way).

Have put the drawn super below the brood box which is rammed with stores. The idea was that the bees prefer the brood below the stores - but given the weight making us clumsy with the process, probably we should have just put the super on top. Fingers crossed the queen didn't get squished!!! At least now there are plenty of cells for her to lay in if needed.

[Jon]

That should sort the problem out.
You will likely have to remove frames of sugar in the Spring before you put supers on top to stop it ending up in your honey but you can cross that bridge when you come to it.