Time in Apidea

[Geo224]

I have some Apidea nucs out now.

Once a Q has mated how long do people leave them to lay in the Apidea for?

I'm planning on making up some queenless 14 x 12 nucs ready to accept my mated Q's, apart from introducing the Q in a cage, can or has anyone placed an Apidea on top of a nuc and united the Q that way?

[Jon]

This Rhodes and Denney link (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?568-apidea-management-and-grafting-photos&p=5560&viewfull=1#post5560) I posted before suggests leaving the queen in the apidea for 28-35 days from emergence.
At a minimum I would wait until there is sealed brood so you can check it is worker brood and a reasonable pattern.

[Beefever]

Yes, up to now I've often done this over the feed hole with newspaper and a small piece of zinc queen excluder (really cautious). But now I want a quicker turn around to use the Apidea again. So my question is –
Once you've removed the queen from an Apidea, how long before you can introduce another queen cell and does it need protecting?
I believe it is safer to introduce a cell rather than a virgin in this instance.

[fatshark]

I've united them but it's a bit of a palaver (involving a Heath Robinson crown board and various straps - made worse by the fact that I use Kielers that have small feet which get in the way) and a waste of a populated mini-nuc in my view. The bees know they're queenless within minutes of the mated queen's removal. I usually leave them a 2-3 hours and then add a new cell. This timing is as much to do with recovering the new sealed cells and distributing the mated queens ... I suspect you could do it pretty much simultaneously.

[Jon]

I do the same as fatshark. A couple of hours is plenty and if you leave it several days they will make their own cell from a larva in the apidea.
I don't believe I have ever had a cell torn down over a period of 4 years involving hundreds of cells introduced to apideas.
It would only happen if there were a queen already in the apidea.
I have no idea who invented that cell protector stuff you read about but it seems to me to be unnecessary.
I move cells between cell raiser colonies all the time and they are always perfectly happy to take cells from anywhere.

I made a mesh adapter to unite the contents of two apideas (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?1343-Queen-rearing-pics&p=19129&viewfull=1#post19129) via the feed compartment using an apidea super on top.
You could also do a heath robinson with an apidea on top with the floor removed and some gaffer tape but the super is neater.


can or has anyone placed an Apidea on top of a nuc and united the Q that way
A lot of people do that and a lot of them loose queens as you are uniting a few hundred bees with several thousand.
if I was going to do that I would cage the queen in an introduction cage in the apidea for a couple of days.

[Kate Atchley]

Thanks ... I have a number of laying queens approaching 28-35 days of age and had planned to unite some directly from their Apideas but I will not risk that having read your comments, Jon.

Please confirm for me: if I am introducing a queen to a nuc she goes in the cage alone and has 5 or so workers with her if she has to travel. Is that right?

Would some of you like to describe the good brood pattern we're looking for with the newly-laying queens? Some of mine have a fairly pepper-pot pattern at first but then the sealed cells are solid once she has been round again. There is some drone brood in one: is that a sign of poor mating or might it be okay for drones to be laid in the Apidea?

And how much does size matter? One queen is smaller than usual but her laying seems fine.

[Jon]

Please confirm for me: if I am introducing a queen to a nuc she goes in the cage alone and has 5 or so workers with her if she has to travel. Is that right?

I usually introduce queens with attendants in the cage. Some people say not to but I usually get queens introduced successfully like this.


Would some of you like to describe the good brood pattern we're looking for with the newly-laying queens? Some of mine have a fairly pepper-pot pattern at first but then the sealed cells are solid once she has been round again. There is some drone brood in one: is that a sign of poor mating or might it be okay for drones to be laid in the Apidea?

Solid pattern is best. Could be a sign of poor mating but I would not worry unless really bad.


And how much does size matter? One queen is smaller than usual but her laying seems fine.
I don't worry about the size of the queen if it lays well.

The easiest way to introduce a queen is to a couple of frames of sealed brood covered with young bees.
It is much easier to requeen young bees than old bees.

[Kate Atchley]

The easiest way to introduce a queen is to a couple of frames of sealed brood covered with young bees.
It is much easier to requeen young bees than old bees.

I will prepare a few like that. Had thought I might shake bees from supers to ensure they are young. Or would you move the brood frames with their attendant bees?

[Jon]

Or would you move the brood frames with their attendant bees?

I would take two frames of sealed brood and then shake in more bees off open brood as the open brood will have younger bees covering it.
Ideally you take bees in one place and move to another to avoid losing the flying bees.
Wedge the cage between the two frames with the tab closed.
Put in a frame of stores and a frame of drawn comb as well.
Check 24 hours later and if the bees are calm and not trying to kill the queen, open the tab.
Don't rush. If the bees are aggressive towards the cage leave it another day or two.
She should be out 24-48 hours after the tab is opened.
leave alone for a week before pulling frames and looking for the queen and don't try to mark and/or clip until she has been laying for a couple of weeks. You could check she is out of the cage 48 hours after opening the tab.
They can be a bit nervous with a new queen and could kill her if disturbed too much.
been there done that with a queen just started to lay and you feel pretty stupid when you find a box full of emergency queen cells a week later.

[Dark Bee]

Thanks ... .................................................. .................................................W ould some of you like to describe the good brood pattern we're looking for with the newly-laying queens? Some of mine have a fairly pepper-pot pattern at first but then the sealed cells are solid once she has been round again. There is some drone brood in one: is that a sign of poor mating or might it be okay for drones to be laid in the Apidea?

And how much does size matter? One queen is smaller than usual but her laying seems fine.

It may be of some slight interest to know that one of the characteristics of the native bee is to store pollen under the brood nest.
Too much of a pepper pot pattern on a brood frame can indicate inbreeding.
In a pure breed of bee I would expect uniformity of size, in cross bred bees size variations would not be abnormal. But perhaps the Q. in question had not come into full lay?

[Kate Atchley]

Thanks Jon and Dark Bee.

I've been describing the very first of the brood laid. Certainly I expect some getting into the swing of it for new queens but how long do you reckon it usually takes for a queen to be in 'full lay' and therefore to demonstrate a brood pattern typical of what will continue follow?

There is some pollen in cells within areas of comb cleared for or laid in ... in line with your comment about native bees, Dark Bee. This might account for some of the blanks.

There is some inbreeding here ... the brood patterns usually show more blanks than for beekeepers in the areas where bees can be swapped around more ... ie have Varroa! Am seeking to bring some fresh bees this season but the options are limited. The bees are hybridised and vary from around 45 to 80% Amm.

[Kate Atchley]

.... she should be out 24-48 hours after the tab is opened. leave alone for a week before pulling frames and looking for the queen and don't try to mark and/or clip until she has been laying for a couple of weeks. .....
They can be a bit nervous with a new queen and could kill her if disturbed too much.
been there done that with a queen just started to lay and you feel pretty stupid when you find a box full of emergency queen cells a week later.

So Jon you don't recommend marking the queens when you cage them but once they've been laying in full-framed nuc for 2 weeks or so? It's so tempting to mark when they are so accessible in the Apidea!

[Jon]

A lot of people mark queens when still in apideas so it is just personal choice in my case.
the Galtee queens we got recently were all marked but not clipped yet.
With new queens I usually mark them after a couple of weeks and then clip the following spring.

[Jon]

Thanks ... I have a number of laying queens approaching 28-35 days of age and had planned to unite some directly from their Apideas but I will not risk that having read your comments, Jon.

Hi Kate.
Just to add to my previous comments about uniting via removing the floor of the apidea:
I had a meeting with a couple of guys from the Native Irish Honeybee Society on Wednesday.
We are organising a queen rearing event in August and were discussing what we are going to demonstrate, standardising things and best practice.
The topic of queen introduction came up and the other guys say they have had very successful results simply uniting with a queenless colony via Apidea so maybe it is just me who is reluctant to do it this way. Each to their own I guess.

[Dark Bee]

So Jon you don't recommend marking the queens when you cage them but once they've been laying in full-framed nuc for 2 weeks or so? It's so tempting to mark when they are so accessible in the Apidea!

I know a commercial beekeeper who refuses to mark unmated queens, as he believes that would make them more vulnerable to attack by swallows and other birds. He uses tippex for marking - so that may be the cause of the problem!
My personal concern is having a strange scent on the queen and causing her to be balled. Mr Posco is perhaps kinder in this regard than the little glass bottles with the prong under the stopper:rolleyes:

[Kate Atchley]

I know a commercial beekeeper who refuses to mark unmated queens, as he believes that would make them more vulnerable to attack by swallows and other birds. He uses tippex for marking - so that may be the cause of the problem!
My personal concern is having a strange scent on the queen and causing her to be balled. Mr Posco is perhaps kinder in this regard than the little glass bottles with the prong under the stopper:rolleyes:

The earliest I might mark the queen would be when she had laid satisfactorily in the mating nuc and was being moved on. And I don't touch them for reasons of scent. I usually use a press-in crown thingy (is that your Mr Posco?) and sometimes, if I need to move the queen for any other reason at the same time, a cage with plunger and soft sponge.

[Dark Bee]

O dear, the good Mr Posco is a marking pen or more correctly is a pen used for marking :cool:
Inevitably it is made in the Far East.

[The Drone Ranger]

Here's my cautionary tale
The year is 2005 so I have a nice blue marker I'm dyeing (sic) to use
Anyway nice big fat new queen above a Snelgrove board is mated,laying and in my sights
Beautiful job nice neat blue mark in the centre of the thorax
Couple of days later found her dead shoved out the door lying on the ground
I just leave them alone now even if it was the following Spring :)
however if its a breeding program I might be more concerned with her lineage so marking would be important

[Dark Bee]

It is difficult to beat those wee coloured disks with numbers, if you really need to keep in track of the relatives. They are a must for I.I.

[Jon]

Here's my cautionary tale
The year is 2005 so I have a nice blue marker I'm dyeing (sic) to use
Anyway nice big fat new queen above a Snelgrove board is mated,laying and in my sights
Beautiful job nice neat blue mark in the centre of the thorax
Couple of days later found her dead shoved out the door lying on the ground
I just leave them alone now even if it was the following Spring :)
however if its a breeding program I might be more concerned with her lineage so marking would be important

DR. I have had similar happen and I also usually leave marking and clipping until the following spring. No rush to mark and clip with new queens at this stage of the season as they should not be swarming.

Speaking of which, other than the grafting, I have not had a single queen cell produced this season

[fatshark]

In contrast to Jon I have had a few QCs this year ... the culprits have been visited by my thumb, and the remaining workers are currently chewing their way through fondant to release a better strain of queen altogether ;-)

[Jon]

That's the way to go fatshark. Why put up with difficult bees when you can improve them.
Part of my lack of swarm cells this season is slow build up as much as low swarming tendency.
Either way, lack of queen cells in the colonies is very welcome. Makes life a lot easier.

[Kate Atchley]

O dear, the good Mr Posco is a marking pen or more correctly is a pen used for marking :cool:
Inevitably it is made in the Far East.

Ahhhah, of course! He who comes in bright colours and shrivels up if you leave his hat off too long.

Always used to leave Q marking until the Spring until I started this Q rearing malarkey. So tempting to send her off in a cage with a fine red mark on her thorax, looking just gorgeous! I will desist.

But I've never lost a queen soon after marking ... not yet anyway. I wonder if anyone has studied different outcomes with different methods of handling/holding/restraining Qs for marking. Is that the crux of it do you think?

And Jon, some of my bees have been making swarm cells this year. But they are not fully Amm and we enjoyed a good spell of weather through most of May and the first half of June.