Wax

[Mellifera Crofter]

Does anybody know why home-made wax sheets are so much more brittle than bought foundation? I was told about this on the wax workshop at Thornes earlier this year and have now experienced it again.

I read somewhere that bees don't really care about the cell imprints on their foundation sheets and that they'll just as well use a plain sheet of wax - so I tried it, but I don't think my bees are impressed. I've now cut them down to strips and will see if they prefer that.

Kitta

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[Dark Bee]

I once spoke about this to a foundation manufacturer here in Shamrockshire. This occurred years ago and complete recall of what was said is now impossible, but the gist of the conversation was that the stretching and rolling to which commercially manufactured foundation was subjected, made it less brittle than that which was cast.

[chris]

the stretching and rolling to which commercially manufactured foundation was subjected; made it less brittle than that which was cast.

This is what I have heard.
The rolling out gives the wax a homogenious crystallisation. It should also be laminated at a temperature that is high enough for it to be malleable, but low enough for it to have a lower rigidity for the same resistance.

[wee willy]

I once spoke about this to a foundation manufacturer here in Shamrockshire. This occurred years ago and complete recall of what was said is now impossible, but the gist of the conversation was that the stretching and rolling to which commercially manufactured foundation was subjected; made it less brittle than that which was cast.

I can verify this:)
A guy from Bronte country used to lecture on handling wax , from candles through to show wax!
He used to demonstrate the difference between. Cast foundation and rolled foundation, the cast variety was inferior to the to the rolled variety due to the fact that it was brittle!
Peter Hewitt was his name, I doubt his still being on the lecture circuit but a very interesting guy indeed!
VM


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[Mellifera Crofter]

Thanks all. That's interesting. I wonder whether feeding a home-made sheet of wax through a mangle (or a few times through a mangle) might improve its suppleness - but then, Chris also mentioned that it should be at the right temperature, and that might be more difficult.

What did you mean with 'laminated', Chris? Are the sheets made up of several sheets pressed together?

Kitta

[chris]

What did you mean with 'laminated', Chris? Are the sheets made up of several sheets pressed together?
Kitta

No, it means I've been over here too long.* Laminer* in french means to pass something between 2 rollers to make it flatter. I don't know what laminate originally meant in English before Formica arrived but i obviously did a bad translation.
Don't worry too much about the temperature being exact. The least brittle wax comes from cold rolling. It just has to be warm enough to be able to pass it through the wringer.

As for cell imprints, when I used foundation,it was always for worker sized cells. This didn't stop the bees making drone size cells for drones or honey. Also, cell alignment often changed according to their needs. The problem is it gives the bees more work, as they must first undo the foundation size imprint to build what they want. I think you'll get better results with a strip than a full sheet.Another comment on your photo, is that you haven't left any gap between the frame and the wax.Look at a frame that the bees have built out-there are gaps. I believe I read that this is for helping to communicate - something to do with vibrations.

[Dark Bee]

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........................................Look at a frame that the bees have built out-there are gaps. I believe I read that this is for helping to communicate - something to do with vibrations.

I recall reading something very similar - it was research done by Dr. Francis Ratneiks or possibly by one of his doctoral or post doctoral students.

[Jon]

DB. Not sure about Ratnieks but Jurgen Tautz certainly discussed that in his 'Biology of a Superorganism' book

[Mellifera Crofter]

I took this photo a few days ago. They've started to draw out the strip foundation. Lots of opportunities for communication gaps there. So far, they're still ignoring whole frames of home-made foundation and I'm busy replacing those with strips or bought foundation.

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[chris]

Why do you think they have so far ignored the wax above where they have started drawing out? Because they don't need it?

[Mellifera Crofter]

No, I think the edge of the wax was the easiest place to start and, from there, they've moved up into the wax strip as well as building down. I think I'll be back there tomorrow and see how they've progressed (I think I know in which hive I've photographed that frame - I should have marked it).

I think they're ignoring the frames that are completely filled because they don't have that easy starting point.
Kitta

[chris]

If possible, take & post a photo- I'm interested to see how they progress.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Sure - I'll look for that frame, or another like it, and mark it.
K

[Mellifera Crofter]

Here's the same frame, Chris, eight days later (I've included the original photo again).

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I also show two photos of a shallow frame that was completely filled with flat home-made foundation. Perhaps you can't see clearly, but they're started to emboss the flat surface on the reverse side (the second photo):

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Kitta

[Bumble]

I'm impressed (see what I did there?) that you've made your own foundation. How did you make it?

[Mellifera Crofter]

Making flat sheets of foundation (not embossed) is very easy, Bumble.

Make a mould for the wax sheets - just a piece of ply slightly bigger than what is needed surrounded with a rim and a gap for pouring. Thorne's sell them (1680) - but just make one yourself. This is mine:

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Give the tray a good soaking and then pour liquid wax into it. Start from the top and try to get the tray covered as quickly and thinly as possible, and pour out the excess. The wax sets very quickly. When the edges of the wax start to pull away from the tray's rim you can carefully peel the sheet out of the tray. That's that. Trim the sheets and fix them to your frames.

Kitta

[Bumble]

Thanks. I'll give it a try some time when I'm less busy than at the moment - the good weather has prompted the garden to try to move indoors!

During a coffee break I was looking online for ways of making foundation, some of the ideas looks awfully complicated and very expensive. Then I found this video which makes it seem remarkably easy. All you need is a tall jug of melted wax and some pieces of of wood the right width for starter strips. I'm sure the hive doesn't have to be a Warre http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31ovKSO-v4g

[chris]

That is certainly some good looking bee work, Kitta.Lots of different sized cells (which answers your question about needing embossed sheets) and different orientation of the hexagons. Later,do you intend going one step further and limiting the foundation to a very narrow strip?

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thank you for the link, Bumble. That seems an even easier way of making foundation - particularly, as I've already noticed, I think the bees prefer strips. They must have been very keen for space to have start working that super frame.

So, yes, Chris, I'll stay with strips rather than full-frame foundation and will probably make them narrower. I think the bees will be just as happy with that. I don't feel strongly that one should only use strips or only full-frame embossed foundation, but I think it is good if there are at least a few frames with strip foundation for the bees to fill as they please.

Kitta

[Bumble]

I'm not sure if mine prefer strips or triangles, but I'm too tight fisted to let them have a whole sheet of commercial wax.

Wax exchange would be a good idea if I lived closer to a supplier, but by the time I've either spent £50 in petrol or paid postage I might as well have not bothered letting them have my carefully melted wax - so I haven't. I've ended up with quite a pile of various shaped lumps of cleanish wax that I can't think what to do with. Being a bit dim I'd sort of thought foundation should be imprinted, but obviously not! It looks like a decent project, and might even be slightly cleaner than dabbling with candles.

[GRIZZLY]

Bumble, why not melt all your wax into a decent size block and use Royal Mail to send it to a supplier who will exchange it for foundation and post it back to you. - simple.
Kitta, you can make a wax mould for yourself using a sheet of premier quality foundation , some glass fibre mat and some glass fibre resin . I made one years ago and have used it on and off for years. The wax sheets can be brittle in cold weather but if you use it in frames immediately you have produced it - it will be fine. you can then wire it if you wish using two probes and a car battery.

[drumgerry]

Forgive me if this isn't the reason but I think it's a biosecurity thing. Wax that your own bees have produced. Wax that is residue free. I can absolutely see the point of that and, in fact, may go down that road myself in the near future

[Jon]

We have a guy in our association has the equipment to make wax sheets and you can get your own stuff back if you give him a sufficient amount.
I haven't used apistan/bayvarol for several years so I was interested in getting back wax without synthetic pyrethroid residue.

[Bumble]

@ Grizzly. It's the same as growing my own veg and making my own jams and pickles. The end product will be, I think, nicer for my bees.

I don't have a massive amount of wax because I don't have a massive number of hives, so exchanging it isn't really worthwhile. I can't see that giving it back to them as starter strips will do any harm.

[prakel]

Here's the same frame, Chris, eight days later (I've included the original photo again).

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I also show two photos of a shallow frame that was completely filled with flat home-made foundation. Perhaps you can't see clearly, but they're started to emboss the flat surface on the reverse side (the second photo):

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Kitta

Hi MC, did you continue your experiment with plain sheets? Any further thoughts on their use?

I stumbled on this pdf earlier which may be of interested to anyone who's not previously seen it.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.planbee.org.uk%2Fuploads%2FLo w%2520cost%2520Foundation%2520_21_.pdf&ei=s8CmVNHqGov2UMzGgKgL&usg=AFQjCNEbOGY80qdF_bYIt7udhSnQ5DKJlA&sig2=xUNoP7aUV1MLGclBsz5Y8A

[fatshark]

Interesting find prakel … what I can't see from a quick read is a comment on the relative preference between starter strips and embossed/plain foundation. I've used a lot of "foundationless" frames last year (1cm starter strips only) and was pleased with the speed with which the bees drew out new comb. In a few hives containing both starter strips or full sheets I saw no obvious difference, but was reasonably convinced that the queen started to lay in the drawn foundationless frame first. All this was hugely unscientific. I'm just now (literally … just back from the garage to find a pen) experimenting making my own starter strips from recovered wax … so much easier than making full sheets.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Hi MC, did you continue your experiment with plain sheets? Any further thoughts on their use? I stumbled on this pdf earlier ...

No, not really, Prakel. I think I've seen that paper before, and that that was one of the reasons why I thought of giving them a full sheet of my own unembossed foundation - but I felt sure that they preferred starter strips, so that's what I've continued to do since then. (Like Fatshark - very unscientific and I happily stopped using the full unembossed sheets as strips are easier!) I still use bought foundation as well, but I want to reduce my use of those.

Kitta

[chris]

- but I felt sure that they preferred starter strips, so that's what I've continued to do since then. (Like Fatshark - very unscientific

Maybe not scientific, but I think you drew the right conclusion when you wrote:

"I think the edge of the wax was the easiest place to start and, from there, they've moved up into the wax strip as well as building down"

[Bumble]

I have experimented with full sheets of foundation, triangles of foundation, and starter strips of both bought foundation and home made flat strips. The bees seem to prefer the strips or triangles and use more frames than when using full sheets of foundation, although they don't always draw the whole frame. It's as if the full sheets confine them to a smaller area of the hive, where they then use the whole frame. With starter strips or triangles they can access the whole area more easily, and choose to spread the brood nest sideways and in the upper two thirds of the box. This with large Jumbo Langstroth/Dadant frames.

[wee willy]

I can see the logic ! Maybe the way to go followed by the addition of full foundationed frames when autumn feeding , thus giving room for the breeding of winter bees ?


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[prakel]

I have experimented with full sheets of foundation, triangles of foundation, and starter strips of both bought foundation and home made flat strips. The bees seem to prefer the strips or triangles and use more frames than when using full sheets of foundation, although they don't always draw the whole frame. It's as if the full sheets confine them to a smaller area of the hive, where they then use the whole frame. With starter strips or triangles they can access the whole area more easily, and choose to spread the brood nest sideways and in the upper two thirds of the box. This with large Jumbo Langstroth/Dadant frames.

Similarly, Alec Gale recommended (in the small magazine which he published in the thirties) that full sheets of foundation should be cut short of the sidebars to improve communication and comb drawing (different to cutting short of the bottom bar to get straight combs drawn).

[fatshark]

Which is often precisely what they do when drawing out a foundationless frame (even one like this with the middle wire not correctly centred) …

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[Beefever]

I suppose if you think about it, it is easier for bees to work an edge of wax as in a strip of foundation. Wax producing bees hang together, in festoons, to generate heat, secrete wax and build comb. If they are sandwiched between two sheets of foundation then they won’t be able to get the numbers in the same spot. Just a thought!