Mating/laying Q = Mini-nuc < Nuc < Hive

[fatshark]

Why do mini-nucs result in consistently faster mating and laying queens? Than 5 frame nucs and full hives that is. A colleague mentioned this recently and speculated is was due to a pheromone - presumably present in hives with a complement of old workers and/or drones, but absent in mini-nucs.

[gavin]

Good question. Clearly, the smaller the colony the more bees realise the urgency of the task of building by winter.

More bees: let's concentrate on laying in stores for now.

Less bees: help! We need more bees, and fast!

Might the occurrence of sealed brood correlate with delayed mating/laying? That would give your colleagues a reason for suspecting a pheromone effect, sealed brood pheromone perhaps.

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[Mellifera Crofter]

A ha! I've just been on a queen-rearing course on Colonsay (together with some very, very knowledgeable people form this forum). AA thinks it is due to the fact that they're a very, very small colony and therefore have a sense of urgency to get their new queen mated as soon as possible and increase their numbers.
Kitta

Snap

[fatshark]

Lots of anthropomorphising going on there! I suspect you're both right but there will be a chemical reason. It would be interesting to know whether a mini-nuc above a travel screen (for example) got the Q mated as fast - when exposed to the scent, but not contact, of all the bees below. If tonight's grafts take perhaps I'll investigate ...

[The Drone Ranger]

The cycle is slower overall though
If you make a split over a Snelgrove board 16 days later queen
Within 10 more days mated and laying say 26 days

Apidea need queen cell at 14 days into process
then 28 -35 days in mininuc
then several days introduction to a hive probably start to finish 50 days
Nearly twice as long :)

[fatshark]

Hi DR ... but I'm only considering emerging to laying, not the overall timing of the full introduction cycle (which I accept and agree is probably more efficient - if you have enough bees - in large(r) colonies). I have queens laying tonight (and probably yesterday going by the looks of things) that were grafted on the 2nd ... 23 days.

[The Drone Ranger]

You got me Fatshark
I was just being a bit cheeky :)
possible there are so few bees that the "let's kick the queen out on a mating flight" party wins every vote

[Jon]

The Snelgrove board suits the guy with a couple of colonies who just wants to requeen them, but if you want any volume of queens it has to be mini nucs. Some people I know swear by Snelgroves. If space in a small garden is limited the vertical split makes sense.

Best case scenario starting from the day of grafting would be virgin 12 days later, laying 10 days after that (optimistic), 10 more days to check for normal sealed worker brood, introduction and laying 4 days = 36 days.
I have taken them out from Apideas at 4 or 5 days and introduced them and got away with it but sometimes they will try and supersede if you do this so it is better to wait.

My first grafts were done on 8th June so might have a couple laying by the weekend.

[fatshark]

Like Jon I like to leave them in the mini-nuc to 'mature' a bit. I grafted again y'day so am cutting it a bit fine this time. An advantage of leaving them a bit longer is that there is a good population of young bees ready to accept the new cell.

I've also left a gap of 4-6 weeks and allowed the mini-nuc to raise a scrub queen before putting a new cell in. This works OK and means you don't have to fill the box again for a second round late in the season.

[gavin]

Lots of anthropomorphising going on there! I suspect you're both right but there will be a chemical reason.

I'd argue: there *could* be a chemical reason. There doesn't have to be. Bees seem to have a sense of the quantitative and it doesn't always involve a pheromone or scent. That scout assessing a potential new home - it estimates the volume of the cavity and very likely isn't using chemicals to do so. The forager knows the distance the trip took. The queen sees the size of the cell she could reverse into (OK, there could be a signal left by the workers but no-one talks about that). It seems like a very basic appreciation of the environment that all organisms possess: how many of my colleagues are there here? The cues used could be diverse. In a social animal 'there's not very many of us!' must be a potent trigger for a change in behaviour (nowt wrong with a spot of anthropomorphising!).

[The Drone Ranger]

can see the attraction of apideas for the queen raiser
They still need bees though and those are occupied doing queen raising only
I was a bit tongue in cheek with my post
The thread says mating mini nuc>nuc>hive
I like a bit of fiddling around with punches or Chinese tools like the next chap

I have 15 hives and at the moment they don't all have boards (everything late this season)
You can raise queen cells to transfer above other boards, get wax drawn in the lower broodbox, and still get a honey crop because all the bees are still together, equipment wise you need a home made board £5-00 and a spare broodbox with wax, no other equipment or skills required
Sales pitch over :)

Jon and Fatshark your help with the apideas has been invaluable and I have followed your advice with the twelve I am using
I have them in the shade which at the moment could be just about anywhere (the sun has become a distant memory)

I am looking up "anthropomorphising" as we speak
I checked with the dog but he just sighed with disgust and and went into a huff . He is very pompous :)

[The Drone Ranger]

The queen sees the size of the cell she could reverse into (nowt wrong with a spot of anthropomorphising!).

"Does my bum look big in this" ?

[gavin]

Definitely nowt wrong with a spot of anthropomorphising!

[Jon]

I checked with the dog but he just sighed with disgust and and went into a huff . He is very pompous :)

Dogs can be like that. Ungrateful at times of the day well away from dog dinner time.

As an alternative to Snelgrove boards, I often make a couple of nucs splitting the top box of a queenright cell raiser after I have run a few batches of grafts through it. Each part can be left with a grafted queen cell from the last batch or you can introduce a mated queen in a cage to each part which is relatively easy as they have young bees.

Re fatshark's question, I have no idea why queens mate faster from apideas but it is certainly true. I don't recall any paper which has meaured this, but on average I would say a queen in an apidea mates about a week sooner than a queen in a full colony.

[gavin]

Is it possible that the act of setting up Apideas/Kielers somehow affects the local weather so that days of 20C+ are more frequent?

(Always alert for alternative explanations ..... )

(lots of winking smileys, in case you thought I'd gone mad!

[Jon]

Could also affect the dynamic of the mating swarms.
I have described on here watching the entire contents of the apidea plus virgin queen leaving and returning about 15 minutes later after circling over the apiary.

[gavin]

A main means of 'spreading the word' about a need for a change in the level of activity, the activity regulator if you like, is the DVAV signal. It gets workers going and it keeps queens quiescent. So is there a change in DVAV frequency in an Apidea as compared to a full hive in the same reproductive status?

(the regular up-and-down brief (1s) vibration by a worker of the thorax (usually) of another worker - or of a queen cell.)

[fatshark]

I'd argue: there *could* be a chemical reason. There doesn't have to be. Bees seem to have a sense of the quantitative and it doesn't always involve a pheromone or scent. That scout assessing a potential new home - it estimates the volume of the cavity and very likely isn't using chemicals to do so. The forager knows the distance the trip took. The queen sees the size of the cell she could reverse into (OK, there could be a signal left by the workers but no-one talks about that). It seems like a very basic appreciation of the environment that all organisms possess: how many of my colleagues are there here? The cues used could be diverse. In a social animal 'there's not very many of us!' must be a potent trigger for a change in behaviour (nowt wrong with a spot of anthropomorphising!).

All of those activities are essentially individual judgement calls ... big enough cell? big enough cavity? how far? What we're dealing with here is a population density-related process. In bacteria there would be a quorum sensing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_sensing) solution which would probably involve chemical communication. Interestingly, the Wikipedia page also includes the swarm decision making process described by Tom Seeley as quorum sensing. In this the "concentration" of dancing determines the outcome. Which makes me wonder if there is a behavioural difference in a mini-nuc which can be "sensed" by the occupants, rather than a chemical influence.

Ah ha ... just seen you most recent post (DVAV) ... we're thinking along the same lines.

[EmsE]

If the queens in the mini nucs begin laying sooner, could there be a risk that she's not mated as well as those that took a bit longer to fit in more mating flights?

[Jon]

It is rare for the queen to take more than one or two mating flights anyway as far as I know.

[EmsE]

I'm relieved with that. Having 2 queens that will have hatched this week they should have been able to fit in a couple of mating flights before the poor weather came along. I'd really like to try queen rearing but need to get my head round the co-ordination and timing of tasks and was also concerned about whether queens raised like this were as good as those raised via an AS.

[Jon]

and was also concerned about whether queens raised like this were as good as those raised via an AS.

I have a queen in her 4th season now which was made from a grafted larva and mated from an apidea.
She has never tried to swarm either.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... She has never tried to swarm either.
What do you do with queens that do not swarm, Jon? Do you only use grafts from them, or would you put one of those cupkit blocks into their hives, or would you sometimes induce an artificial swarm?
Kitta

[EmsE]

I have her queen in her 4th season now which was made from a grafted larvae and mated from an apidea.
She has never tried to swarm either.

That the kind of queen I'm after:D. With a non-swamy strain would you leave the bees to supersede her naturally or plan her replacement with one that you've grafted?

[brothermoo]

What do you do with queens that do not swarm


Graft what you can from her... Or make her your drone producing colony of you are grafting from a different queen
__________________
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[Jon]

They tried to supersede her last August but I only realised that in hindsight as I collected a wee cluster of bees with a queen on a fencepost up at the apiary. I could not work out where it came from and then a couple of days later I found a single open supersedure cell in her colony. I must have collected the replacement queen when she was making a pit stop on a mating flight. Unfortunately I found her dead in the apidea I put her in a week later but at least the original is still there.


What do you do with queens that do not swarm, Jon? Do you only use grafts from them
MC. this is the crux of the matter. Most beekeepers make increase from the colonies which make queen cells so inadvertently they are constantly selecting for the swarmiest bees in the apiary.
If you change your mind set to grafting rather than harvesting queen cells, you should always be making increase from the non swarmy colonies.

[The Drone Ranger]

This is a pic of a cell punch queen cell being built
The stainless ring fits instead of the brown cup
Cupkit system that is1610

[gavin]

I spent 30 secs buying some brown cups at Thornes the other day - some people take all winter to make something similar!

Grafted in my lunch hour yesterday but by going home time the bees had eaten the majority of them. Despite the supercedure cell in the cell raising colony before I rearranged into a Harden/Wilkinson and Brown formation, I don't think that they were in the mood.

[The Drone Ranger]

Ha ha!

Gavin No matter how cack handed you are you can cell punch a very small larva
1611
this is how the rings are positioned over larva they are very sharp
You use a tool to push them through
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1qI17v29jc
then the ring with cell goes in the holder
1612
when the punched cell is in there you just take a very sharp knife and cut off the top of the cell
Shove them in a suitable queen rearing hive and wait
I did some yesterday a mixture of 20 grafts and punches only 5 takes It might have been weather
My satellite reception was breaking up this morning

[The Drone Ranger]

Just thought I might make a few observations from this years efforts to raise queens

By far the easiest method is to use a Snelgrove board and remove queen cells from some of the top boxes replacing with Queen cells from the better types

Second easiest just use the complete cupkit cassette system trapping the queen in there for a day or so then release her leaving the front off
3 days later holding the white part of the cupkit cell assembly put it over a brown cup and push a little
The cup now secure in the holder can be fitted to the brown base on the cell bar

Cell raisers, well again the easiest are the boxes over the Snelgrove, but the queen right Ben Harding comes close

Cell punching, very good if you have less steady hands, needs the right comb
Not too new that it's floppy, or too old with previous brood cocoons,
probably better to put the queen on a good super comb and trap her there till you get what you need

Grafting I only used the Chinese tool which works best on older comb because it digs into new wax
The JZ/BZ cups are easiest to graft into but the cupkit is better for those who need to cage the queens etc

The apidea is the best design of mating hive but the Keiler has the advantage of size and comb area as well as being a little bit cheaper
Liquid feed works but on the whole making candy means you wont be checking as often

The crack pipe queen catcher and marking cage get my vote along with the Posca pen

There are lots of other methods and good equipment for the job but I don't have any experience of owning or using them :~)

[The Drone Ranger]

here's a simple nuc construction I think it takes national size frames
http://www.squidoo.com/6-easy-steps-to-make-a-nuc-box

[mbc]

here's a simple nuc construction I think it takes national size frames
http://www.squidoo.com/6-easy-steps-to-make-a-nuc-box

langstroth

[The Drone Ranger]

langstroth
Thanks MBC

[The Drone Ranger]

I have 7 apideas who have produced one mated queen and have been given another queen cell
Those cells have hatched out and there is sealed brood in there from the previous queens
Will they be overcrowded or can I just let them get on with things ?
There are 3 with queens who have been in there for a while how long can I leave them they have sealed brood as well

[Jon]

21 days from she started to lay is the key time to watch as a load of new bees will emerge over a couple of days.
You will need to remove brood or add more space.
Easiest first step is to remove the feeder and give 2 more frames.
I redistribute brood from one apidea to another to try and even out strength.
If you have apidea supers you can add another 5 frames on top.
I have the feeders out of most of mine at the moment.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks Jon I will have to get some spare frames
It's really a hold the fort job because I wont be rearing any more queens after these

[Jon]

Spare frames (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?568-apidea-management-and-grafting-photos&p=20419&viewfull=1#post20419)

Why pay more?

[The Drone Ranger]

Spare frames (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?568-apidea-management-and-grafting-photos&p=20419&viewfull=1#post20419)

Why pay more?
Neat !
thanks Jon I will make some tomorrow
The way the weather is shaping up mating might be a risky business

[Jon]

DR.
Best way after removing the feeder is to move the drawn frame from the front of the apidea to the front of where the feeder sat and then place one new frame at the front and the other at the back. The 3 existing frames stay in the middle. If you put two new ones together they might cross comb them.
This knowledge will be handy should you ever decide to burn the nationals and build yourself a top bar hive!

[The Drone Ranger]

DR.
Best way after removing the feeder is to move the drawn frame from the front of the apidea to the front of where the feeder sat and then place one new frame at the front and the other at the back. The 3 existing frames stay in the middle. If you put two new ones together they might cross comb them.
This knowledge will be handy should you ever decide to burn the nationals and build yourself a top bar hive!
Smith Hives I have but I take your point :)
I had a few things to do this morning and the few quick hive checks turned into a steam sauna nightmare
So the construction has been delayed till tomorrow morning and now I know where I should put them.
Many thanks

[Jon]

Keep forgetting a lot of you Scots use Smiths.

[drumgerry]

Damnable things they are Jon with their miserable wee short lugged frames. National man through and through!

[Jon]

I have a single smith frame out of hundreds of frames I have - which I have converted to a cell bar frame.
Not sure where it came from unless it dates from the 17th century and arrived during the plantation!

[drumgerry]

I hesitate to say it but it's not covered in orange propolis is it?!:D

[Jon]

LOL. Might be some relic from an Orange Lodge which accidentally found its way into one of my brood boxes. Might be worth something - or could be a potential item of veneration and pilgrimage. The most esteemed Smith Frame carried over the River Boyne on the back of a white charger.

[drumgerry]

As a native Ulsterman you're allowed to say such things Jon. I, on the other hand, can only claim to ancestry which would give me similar privileges!

[The Drone Ranger]

Smiths were the first hives I had
In cedar they last forever there's nothing to fall off
short lugs top bee space etc
I need a conversion kit from apidea to Smith frames

[Jon]

As a native Ulsterman you're allowed to say such things Jon. I, on the other hand, can only claim to ancestry which would give me similar privileges!

I think my ancestors came from the East side of Scotland. Gavin had me DNA tested before allowing me to post on the forum.

[Jon]

I need a conversion kit from apidea to Smith frames


Build your apidea up to about 10 frames then get a frame of sealed brood minus bees (on a holy relic smith frame) and shake the apidea contents on to it. You can then place the apidea with frames minus the bees over the feed hole of one of your smith hives to let the brood hatch out so no waste.

[drumgerry]

DR - you stick up for Smith hives! I consider them an abomination but that's just me ;)

Jon - in that case I'm probably more Irish than you are! :D

[Jon]

Well I have the passport!

[drumgerry]

Haha - I'm sure I could get one if grandparents count!

[Jon]

If you have a grandparent born anywhere in Ireland before 1922 you can get an Irish passport.

[drumgerry]

Damn he was born in Govan in Glasgow before they moved to Belfast! Maternal side came from Bray nr Dublin but don't know if he was born there or if it was his parents. Never mind - I'll have to content myself with being Scottish!

[Jon]

Might be a while until you can carry a Scottish passport though. You can but dream!

[drumgerry]

Aye just a couple of years Jon! Whoops - may have crossed a line there!

[Jon]

Reluctantly getting back on topic, I checked an apidea today at about 5pm and saw a queen showing the mating sign.
This queen emerged a week ago on 20/7 so it looks as if the queens are still flying and mating quickly.
I'll check the apidea for eggs tomorrow, out of curiosity, but I reckon it usually takes 48 hours to see eggs after a queen mates.

[fatshark]

And while we're on topic I wonder if anyone has noticed whether mini nucs used multiple times during a season "slow down" with regard to the speed of getting a mated Q. This would address the point made by Gavin? Jon? earlier about the presence of sealed brood possibly slowing things down.

I have Kielers getting a third round of cells on Thursday this week ... unfortunately I didn't have the time or inclination to check the first lot speed wise, and I'm not going to have time to check these either. I'm also well aware that meddling can cause problems ... What I have had is 100% success - but these are smaller numbers than Jon routinely does - which is good news.


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[Jon]

Hi fatshark
I don't think the presence of brood slows things down.
I had a batch of 5 apideas which had queens emerge on 7th July.
Two had a frame of brood from another apidea and three did not.
All 5 had eggs on 15 July.

I often make up fresh apideas with a frame of brood if I have it spare, shaking in bees as normal.
I also split apideas which have grown to 5 frames or more to make up new ones.

The problem with brood in the apidea is they make their own queen cell after queen removal.
If you put a new grafted cell in fairly quickly this is not a problem, but if you wait several days you will have to open the apidea and nip the cell, possibly two, before introducing a new one.

[fatshark]

Hi Jon
It was Gavin who suggested sealed brood pheromone in post #2 ... I'd re-read it but can't compose and review old posts on Tapatalk on my iPad simultaneously (and can't remember long enough to be sure). I do the same as you, splitting and merging Kielers as needed during the season. I've let them raise a scrub queen (which always sounds derogatory, but she was perfectly satisfactory as far as I was concerned for what she was doing) to keep unused mini nucs going during gaps in grafting/rearing. This season the flow has been so good they're packing in the stores and leaving less room for laying ...


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[Black Comb]

Re. kielers.
I have a couple I bought a few years ago but have never used.
Are they supposed to have a clear plastic internal cover with a hole in for Q cell insertion (like Apideas)?
Mine have nothing.

[fatshark]

Nor have mine ... until I cut up a sheet of thick polythene which serves the purpose very well.


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[Black Comb]

Thank you.

[Jon]

BC. That is one of the main problems with Kielers. You need to make yourself an inner cover with an introduction hole for the queen cell.

[The Drone Ranger]

Re. kielers.
I have a couple I bought a few years ago but have never used.
Are they supposed to have a clear plastic internal cover with a hole in for Q cell insertion (like Apideas)?
Mine have nothing.

I have 6 of them and for some years they have been in the shed with only spiders using them
I did have sheets of heavy polythene (poly tunnel covering)
I had 2 apideas already and this year bought 10 more
When they were all occupied I dragged out two of the Keilers to acommodate two virgin queens
Although they needed more bees I have found I got on well with them so will be cleaning up the others :)
The sloping sides are a good idea
They are less sophisticated than apideas but very useful
I think it would be easier just to attach the queen cell to the frame bar before the bees go in using a cupkit holder

[nemphlar]

Apideas, has anyone an explanation why 6 out of 6 would have piled into the feeder, they're not all drowning but they do end up a useless mess. After success last year I got another 4 and have 3 at the moment with v queens in them,but another 3 took the feeder suicide route. Fortunately I have am having more success with the standard nuc.

[The Drone Ranger]

Apideas, has anyone an explanation why 6 out of 6 would have piled into the feeder, they're not all drowning but they do end up a useless mess. After success last year I got another 4 and have 3 at the moment with v queens in them,but another 3 took the feeder suicide route. Fortunately I have am having more success with the standard nuc.

Icing sugar makes a good solid candy with just a little water added
I made a little oblong of plywood the same size as internal bottom of the feeder that went in first as a float when adding syrup rather than candy
They stand on that and get some syrup from round the edges :)
some of them still drown --I blame the parents

[fatshark]

Vermiculite or small poly balls (like from a bean bag) as an alternative perhaps ?

[nemphlar]

Thanks chaps, it's odd they're clumped on top of the float and not in the syrup, one in all in

[Black Comb]

Bakers fondant in a cut comb container works for me.
As outlined in Managing Mini Nucs by Ron Brown.

[Jon]

Just make sure the plastic container used is a snug fit in the apidea. I have people in the queen rearing group using plastic containers which reduce the capacity of the feeder by 50% or more. The bees will starve if you get a week of wet weather and the apidea is not checked.
I remember this happened a lot last year when the weather was bad. If you reduce the feeder capacity be prepared to check the apidea far more often - and that can be making extra work if the apideas are at a mating site somewhere.