Supply of Varroa free Queens

[Floyd]

Thought I would ask this question directly to the Scottish Beekeepers.

Managed my first full inspection yesterday, which turned out to be an oh dear moment.

Hive 1 strong hive sealed brood on 5 frames, nice marked queen from last year.

Hive 2 Drone layer

Hive 3 no brood, no sign of queen

I had already lost hive 4 due to isolation starvation despite ample fondant. My 5 frame nuc with last years raised queen sadly didnt make it.

My problem now is that being in a Varroa free area, my options of queen suppliers is limited. I have contacted Andrew Abrahams but the lack spring means that June would be the earliest.

He recommended merging Hive 2 and 3 and adding a frame from Hive 1 and feed heavily. This however will take sometime and even then queen mating may not be successful.

So does anyone know of any other Queen supplier that are in a Varroa free location.

Many thanks

[Jon]

In your situation would be tempted to just write off hives 2 and 3 as all you have there is old bees which are not much use. They will be dead within a few weeks.
Alternately you could remove any dud queens present and combine the remaining bees with hive 1 via newspaper.
Bear in mind though that any disaster with combining leave you queenless as you are down to one colony.

Adding a queen which will likely cost you £40, even if you can source one, to a few frames of old bees is not really a good idea. I would build up that strong colony and do a split as soon as it is feasible.

[Trog]

Whereabouts are you, Floyd?

[Floyd]

Trog,

I am on Scoraig, Wester-ross,although I am down in Fife monthly.

[Trog]

Maybe a bit far from Mull for me to help. What about your local association?

[Floyd]

Distance is certainly a problem would involve a 12 hour round trip, butthanks anyway.

Sadly my association in Digwall is is an infested area. The lady I got my original colonies from has now retired and the hives moved to an infected area.

May try to merge the two hives then place in a 5 frame nuc with a frame of eggs.

Will look to split hive 1 during June when I can get AMM queens from Colonsay.

Thanks anyway.

[greengumbo]

Distance is certainly a problem would involve a 12 hour round trip, butthanks anyway.

Sadly my association in Digwall is is an infested area. The lady I got my original colonies from has now retired and the hives moved to an infected area.

May try to merge the two hives then place in a 5 frame nuc with a frame of eggs.

Will look to split hive 1 during June when I can get AMM queens from Colonsay.

Thanks anyway.

You could easily post a queen with some attendants from Mull to Wester Ross. Even a few days in a cage would be fine. Many of the commercial outfits do it all the time and I bought a mated queen last year that arrived in top shape in her wee cage via royal mail.

[Trog]

GG, I think the post from Mull to Wester Ross would take too long - it would go all round the houses before it got there and she'd be dead by then!

[Bridget]

So do a test mailing. I'm sometimes quite surprised by the speed of the post to our neck of the woods though I admit not as remote as you are

[Trog]

Inverness-shire to Wester Ross no problem - possibly same sorting office (Inverness?). Our post goes to Glasgow or Paisley first, I think. Had Floyd been fairly local, I might have been able to help but there are beekeepers nearer to home in fully varroa-free zones who'll be needing queens too.

[Floyd]

I will continue this thread as all the information is in my original message.

The weather here has been appalling and looks likly to continue. I need to unite hives 2/3 with hive 1 ASAP as I am away on Friday, but will need to go through hive 2 to find the DLQ. Is it possible to unite 2 hives in one go. I am not concerned about the possibility of hive 2's brood chilling as it the DLQ hive, but would like to go through both hives just in case.

Many thanks in advance.

[fatshark]

You can certainly unite three into one ... it's supposed to reduce fighting that way. Others may suggest alternative approaches but you should be able to spray them gently with scented water and just chuck them altogether into a single box.

You could risk shaking them out through a QE to avoid having to find the DLQ if time was really short.

[COVENANTER]

hi i found a company online called bs bee suppliers .i found them by accident .i lost my queen and was constantly getting told sorry we are sold out or we charge 100 pounds for mated queens. I contacted bs bees and less than 48 hours later a mated queen arrived.for the sum of 34 pounds postage paid So why not give them a try . they have carnolians and buckfast in stock

[Jon]

The OP is in a varroa free area and wants to source from a varroa free area to avoid the risk of introducing varroa.
Queens available at the moment will be imports rather than local.

[Trog]

From what I've heard of this winter's losses, I see little point in importing. Winters like the one we've just had - lasting from October to mid-May - really sort out the wheat from the chaff and it's the local bees which have done best.

[fatshark]

From reports I heard today I think about £200,000 of (packaged) bees have just been imported in the last couple of days.

Even down here in the balmy Midlands - all of 7oC today - the local bees appear to have fared better. The problem now is meeting demand and, with the weather warming, this far-outstrips supply before queen rearing can properly start. I think there is a compelling case to overwinter queens efficiently for early nucs and suspect this might be a better way than overwintering complete nucs (on the basis that full hives build up faster than nucs from an early start).

To go back to the last point made by Jon ... if the OP only wants Varroa free, rather than native/black/Amm and Varroa free, then surely that could be achieved by careful visual inspection? Ditch the attendants and get the jewellers loupe out to scrutinise the queen. I'm pretty sure that phoretic mites are adult females and therefore visible ... not ideal I know, but a possible solution.

[The Drone Ranger]

Buying a nuc with 4 frames of brood , this years queen, and available in the May is what people a led to expect, but is that possible in Scotland ?

[prakel]

From what I've heard of this winter's losses, I see little point in importing. Winters like the one we've just had - lasting from October to mid-May - really sort out the wheat from the chaff and it's the local bees which have done best.

But most reports which I've read seem to be suggesting that bad mating of British bred queens during the 2012 Summer is one of the prime drivers for the mass losses which would suggest that imported bees (mated in a more stable environment) might actually be the only way to continue keeping bees in the British Isles in future.

Of course, if one or more of the big guys that have suffered mass losses were to come forward and point the finger to some other reason then we might be able to get a different perspective on what's happening.

[Jon]

It is the commercial beekeepers who seem to have the heaviest losses and they are the main users of imported queens and packages - and are restocking again with imported queens and packages.
If the losses are the same next winter will they be able to go cap in hand for another handout - in order to restock with imported queens and packages.
Funny Logic and it is taxpayers money funding this.
Hardly a sustainable business model.

Those of us who work with native stock get bombarded with false propaganda about how other races are more gentle, more productive, less prone to chalk brood bla bla bla.


But most reports which I've read seem to be suggesting that bad mating of British bred queens during the 2012 Summer is one of the prime drivers for the mass losses

Hi prakel. I lost a lot of nucs headed by 2012 mated queens but the problem was not poor mating. None had turned drone layer and the brood pattern in the autumn was fine. No supersedure attempts either which would have been a sure sign.
The problem as I see it was the relentless poor weather from June, low temperatures reducing the effectiveness of thymol treatments, no ivy pollen in the autumn followed by a winter far longer than usual.
My losses were due to spring dwindle. There were not enough bees produced in the autumn and the bees in the overwintering clusters did not live long enough.
When a nuc or a colony get down to less than 3 frames it is usually on the way out and is very susceptible to either isolation starvation of freezing if there are several days of sub zero weather in the spring.


Buying a nuc with 4 frames of brood , this years queen, and available in the May is what people a led to expect, but is that possible in Scotland ?

I would say you could get queens mated the odd year but most of the time the weather will be against you.
I rarely have any queens mated before June.
This year I wont even be starting grafting until June so the first queens will be late June or early July.

[prakel]

Hi prakel. I lost a lot of nucs headed by 2012 mated queens but the problem was not poor mating. None had turned drone layer and the brood pattern in the autumn was fine. No supersedure attempts either which would have been a sure sign.
The problem as I see it was the relentless poor weather from June, low temperatures reducing the effectiveness of thymol treatments, no ivy pollen in the autumn followed by a winter far longer than usual.
My losses were due to spring dwindle. There were not enough bees produced in the autumn and the bees in the overwintering clusters did not live long enough.
When a nuc or a colony get down to less than 3 frames it is usually on the way out and is very susceptible to either isolation starvation of freezing if there are several days of sub zero weather in the spring.

Jon, pretty much ties in with some of what I've read from Mr.McG on the big forum -including his prediction from the end of last summer.

Still begs the question, is there truly a race of bees which is actually more adapted than any other to the weather patterns which we're getting NOW as opposed to 100 or even 50 years ago. It's a huge subject, not helped I think, by the constant blame being put on poor matings (and as you know there have been quite a few such claims on the net).

I of course, in the balmy South, with my highly mongrelized stock can only experience the anguish of these losses through reading of other's plight....

Re the three frame comment; very important point when building nucs which are both stable units and quick off the marks too.


I would say you could get queens mated the odd year but most of the time the weather will be against you.
I rarely have any queens mated before June.
This year I wont even be starting grafting until June so the first queens will be late June or early July.

People need re educating IF the goal is to stop the imports. Either wait for tested June/July nucs or go for overwintered ones. I liked the scheme outlined by someone the other week (poss Fatshark but apologies if it was somebody else) where new breeding group members are encouraged to build their own nuc -from scratch through their first Summer and to then overwinter it so that they've got a head start the following year.

Local associations could perhaps be the ideal source of such education -especially if they themselves are taking an anti import stance. But, it's pretty much all hot air unless they actually put something in place for the new members and no, getting a couple of the old timers to supply nucs or handing out swarms which someone else has caught (absolute minimum -make the new beekeeper go and help catch it) isn't a constructive way forward for a club which is preaching from the anti import/sustainable beekeeping agenda.

Just a little rant -not aimed at anyone.

[Jon]

Overwintered nucs is what we are trying to promote here between local associations.

Re. which bees survived best last winter, I am not sure it was related to bee race.

In my case the colonies I lost were the ones which were a bit small in Autumn, mainly nucs.
The previous winter I even overwintered 4 apideas and I think I lost only 1/20, but last winter none of my apideas over wintered and even nucs were not big enough.
Exactly the same preparation going into both winters.
This year the bees dwindled so I am speculating that just did not live long enough due to the reasons I outlined above.

[The Drone Ranger]

Lots of people begin beekeeping with a swarm
Queen age errrr -- unknown
Frames of brood -- none
drawn comb -- none
But the queen and the bees are related to one another

Compared to the minimum expected from a "satisfactory " Nucleus is the bar being set too high

[Trog]

A reasonable point, DR, but a swarm is usually free and a good quality nuc (and I'm assuming queen with her own offspring) is expensive so it's right to expect value for money.

[Neils]

Agree with Trog. A Swarm's free, you take your chances with them, I've had some great bees from swarms and some horrors and that's the main downside to dishing out newly caught swarms, especially big ones, to beginners I feel.

Sadly I think a lot of people are selling duff Nucs to people who don't know any better. I know someone who often can't get buyers to inspect the Nuc. While I'm sure the majority of duff Nucs are sold in good faith, a combination of the competence of the vendor and inexperience of the buyer means a lot of people hand over good money for a box of problems.

[prakel]

Reading the Drone Ranger's post i thought that he was opening up debate about the possibilities of promoting well made smaller nucs rather than looking toward lowering the actual quality of the product.

[Neils]

Could well be, but there are some shocking quality nucs out there, generally speaking, over the past few years. Other than prior reputation who determines that a beekeeper sells a well made Nuc?

[Jon]

That's certainly true Neil.
I remember reading a couple of years ago someone had bought a 'nuc' for over £100 which consisted of bees, a couple of frames of brood and a sealed queen cell.
The problem with distributing swarms is that the worst beekeepers, who do no swarm control and have swarmy bees, end up with masses of cast swarms and they start distributing them to the beginners who usually don't know any better as to what they are getting.
This undermines a queen rearing programme where we are trying to provide a nuc to a certain standard with a queen grafted from good stock.
Some people think that getting something for nothing is the best deal possible but I think this practice is really dodgy with regard to beginners.
The beginners should be getting bees with good temperament as opposed to pot luck of a cast swarm with a virgin queen which may or may not mate.
Beginners do not have the experience to sort out problems such as queens failing to mate or turning drone layer.

[The Drone Ranger]

I just wonder what is realistic using less prolific bees
in a colder climate like Scotland By May
Are overwintered nucs the only way to go?
they're expensive naturally

[Jon]

I think a beginner starting up with a nuc in July or August is being set up for failure.
The problem is the clamour to get started and some folk don't want to wait.

[The Drone Ranger]

Reading the Drone Ranger's post i thought that he was opening up debate about the possibilities of promoting well made smaller nucs rather than looking toward lowering the actual quality of the product.
Yes just trying to get some expert opinions on how to get enough start up beekeepers supplied

[gavin]

One answer DR is to teach beginners that locally produced nucs are usually not available until June.

Another might be to make a nuc from the queen-right split in its second year? They should be ready a few weeks ahead of a nuc headed by a new queen.

[The Drone Ranger]

I think a beginner starting up with a nuc in July or August is being set up for failure.
The problem is the clamour to get started and some folk don't want to wait.
Is it better to begin with a full size hive later in the year ?

[The Drone Ranger]

One answer DR is to teach beginners that locally produced nucs are usually not available until June.

Another might be to make a nuc from the queen-right split in its second year? They should be ready a few weeks ahead of a nuc headed by a new queen.
Gavin would the AMM type bee be producing as much brood as the Carniolan
Should expectations be adjusted in line or would 4 frames of brood still be the standard
If a new beekeeper gets a nuc in Jun what do you think is needed in stores and pollen combs

[Neils]

I think a beginner starting up with a nuc in July or August is being set up for failure.
The problem is the clamour to get started and some folk don't want to wait.


Yes just trying to get some expert opinions on how to get enough start up beekeepers supplied

I think these are two related points in many respects.

Lots of us on here overwinter nucs as a matter of course (when we can). Most of us however don't current sell or give those nucs to new beekeepers or on a 'commercial' basis. The traditional Nuc market is that they're ready in June, maybe late may if you're lucky but new beekeepers (or those wiped out) understandably want bees in April on a normal year and there isn't currently a domestic supply to meet that demand despite overwintered Nucs seeming to more than fit that bill. Proven queen yada yada yada.

[gavin]

Gavin would the AMM type bee be producing as much brood as the Carniolan
Should expectations be adjusted in line or would 4 frames of brood still be the standard
If a new beekeeper gets a nuc in Jun what do you think is needed in stores and pollen combs

I think people should expect 4 frames of brood and one of stores (for a 5-framer) no matter what the race.

[The Drone Ranger]

Could well be, but there are some shocking quality nucs out there, generally speaking, over the past few years. Other than prior reputation who determines that a beekeeper sells a well made Nuc?
Hi Neils
I'm sure your right
I would hate to be selling bees
It the difference between giving a cutting to a friend
and setting up a plant nursery

[The Drone Ranger]

I think people should expect 4 frames of brood and one of stores (for a 5-framer) no matter what the race.
Thanks Gavin so thats a benchmark for Jun then

[The Drone Ranger]

I think these are two related points in many respects.

Lots of us on here overwinter nucs as a matter of course (when we can). Most of us however don't current sell or give those nucs to new beekeepers or on a 'commercial' basis. The traditional Nuc market is that they're ready in June, maybe late may if you're lucky but new beekeepers (or those wiped out) understandably want bees in April on a normal year and there isn't currently a domestic supply to meet that demand despite overwintered Nucs seeming to more than fit that bill. Proven queen yada yada yada.

A chap rang me at the end of February one year

[prakel]

I think people should expect 4 frames of brood and one of stores (for a 5-framer) no matter what the race.

I wonder whether there might be a fair market for May/early June nucs on less than that. Three brood and one store comb should be able to leap forward without any undue stress on the bees or the beekeeper, at least, here in the South.

It might also help to try and reeducate people on early management of their nuc. What's all this business about getting it out of the travelling box and into a full hive very often followed by copious recommendations for insulated dummies (there's an apt word). Put 'em in a nuc box and then let them pull into another nuc box to get their full compliment of combs drawn then move them to that full size box which they now fit properly.

[The Drone Ranger]

I wonder whether there might be a fair market for May/early June nucs on less than that. Three brood and one store comb should be able to leap forward without any undue stress on the bees or the beekeeper, at least, here in the South.

It might also help to try and reeducate people on early management of their nuc. What's all this business about getting it out of the travelling box and into a full hive very often followed by copious recommendations for insulated dummies (there's an apt word). Put 'em in a nuc box and then let them pull into another nuc box to get their full compliment of combs drawn then move them to that full size box which they now fit properly.

I had never given much thought to how a nuc should be expanded to a full size hive (until now)

If I kept bees in a 5 frame nuc until june and they had 4 frames of brood and one of stores they would be ready to swarm unfortunately
(unless the brood and the queen had just been brought together)
Perhaps other peoples bees would react differently

[prakel]

But there's no need to keep them in one 5 frame box...let them pull out the second then we're looking at a 'full' colony or two nucs. Far more efficient than asking them to draw the same number of combs horizontally across the frames in my experience. There's a tie-in here with my observations in the recent 'brood and a half thread'.

[prakel]

If I kept bees in a 5 frame nuc until june and they had 4 frames of brood and one of stores they would be ready to swarm unfortunately

If selling bees then you'd have just earnt yourself a 'May Collection' premium and got a jump on the competition!

[gavin]

I think that none of the varied nuc box types I hold are capable (in their current state) of being stacked. Perhaps that would be a useful features, but not *that* useful!

Yes, there ought to be a premium for early availability of nucs, especially when the local price is usually £25 per frame of bees. That is what we tell our beginners, and any vendors listening. I have seen one guy (nameless!) sell a 12-frame box of bees in August for £300 which seemed unfair as probably all he did (to meet this lady's request for a full box of bees) was build up his 5-framer and delay until it was ready. So we tell our beginners now that the value of bees declines rapidly past July.

[Jon]

One problem with building up nucs is that beginners overfeed and the queen has nowhere to lay because the cells are full of sugar syrup.
Some of the advice given out to beginners on the bee forums is terrible.

[GRIZZLY]

One problem with building up nucs is that beginners overfeed and the queen has nowhere to lay because the cells are full of sugar syrup.
Some of the advice given out to beginners on the bee forums is terrible.

I've had to remove 3 or 4 frames of capped stores from ALL of my bees this year to give the queens laying room. The amount of food consumed over the past winter has been very low. I'm a bit mystified as to why this should have been so as pretty well all the stores have been used up in previous seasons.

[Jon]

Maybe due to smaller than usual clusters last winter.

[Mellifera Crofter]

I think a beginner starting up with a nuc in July or August is being set up for failure. ...

But Jon, will we have nucs ready before July? Out of my ten hives I found only one hive with a queen cup and an egg in it yesterday, so I might be creating an AS next week - but that new nuc won't be ready until July. Are you saying beginners are best advised to buy over-wintered nucs? I've promised a beginner a nuc, but I thought it will be a new nuc with this year's queen. They live nearby so I can help - but if they didn't, would you think I'd be irresponsible selling them a new nuc in July? I'm too fond of all my over-wintered hives to sell any. (I've not read the entire thread, so I might have misunderstood something.)
Kitta

Oh dear - I though Jon's post was the last one in the thread but there are two more pages for me to read so the answer might be there.
K

[Jon]

Hi MC.
I think overwintered nucs are better.
If a beginner does something daft and kills the queen, the colony is likely doomed - as even if a replacement queen manages to fly and mate late on, the nuc will have lost a month of build up at a crucial time.
Last July and August I made up about 20 nucs and I lost most of them over winter.
We have had the worst winter for losses that anyone can remember.
If I had sold those nucs to 20 beginners in July or August and taken £120 from each I would be feeling pretty bad at the moment.
I am happier to take the risk of overwintering myself and sell the nuc for a premium in the spring.
In an ideal world we would like to organise the nuc sale and overwintering through the association and I think a period of mentoring should be built into the package as well.
The losses this winter have set us back a year.

[mbc]

I've had to remove 3 or 4 frames of capped stores from ALL of my bees this year to give the queens laying room. The amount of food consumed over the past winter has been very low. I'm a bit mystified as to why this should have been so as pretty well all the stores have been used up in previous seasons.

Its quite a common feature this season, many people having lost their bees with plenty of stores left too.
I put it down to the protein/carbohydrate balance being out of sync last autumn, with a dearth of quality pollen but plenty of beekeeper supplied carbohydrate.
Obviously more protein = more bees = more carbohydrate consumption and visa/versa.
The lack of protein last autumn, or the weak colonies unable to forage for it effectively, contributed greatly to the high winter losses.

[Jon]

I think that none of the varied nuc box types I hold are capable (in their current state) of being stacked. Perhaps that would be a useful feature

I can stack my correx boxes by removing the mesh floor which gives 7 frames over 7.
I have to raise the floor in the bottom one as my design has a gap at the top for feeding or insulation and they would fill that with brace comb.

[Calum]

Distance is certainly a problem would involve a 12 hour round trip, butthanks anyway.

Sadly my association in Digwall is is an infested area. The lady I got my original colonies from has now retired and the hives moved to an infected area.

May try to merge the two hives then place in a 5 frame nuc with a frame of eggs.

Will look to split hive 1 during June when I can get AMM queens from Colonsay.

Thanks anyway.

Hi,
been in touch with the Gairloch beekeepers? Margie Ramsay in Poolewe would be worth a call. Say hi from me.
Also I'd make a shook swarm from colonies 2&3 sieve it through an excluder, slap an excluder on the entrance (to prevent a dud queen / laying worker entrance) and give them a frame of open brood to be getting along with (if it doesnt work out you can always give it back).
And hope for better weather in 4 weeks time....

[Calum]

Hi MC.
I think overwintered nucs are better.
If a beginner does something daft and kills the queen, the colony is likely doomed - as even if a replacement queen manages to fly and mate late on, the nuc will have lost a month of build up at a crucial time.
Last July and August I made up about 20 nucs and I lost most of them over winter.
We have had the worst winter for losses that anyone can remember.
If I had sold those nucs to 20 beginners in July or August and taken £120 from each I would be feeling pretty bad at the moment.
I am happier to take the risk of overwintering myself and sell the nuc for a premium in the spring.
In an ideal world we would like to organise the nuc sale and overwintering through the association and I think a period of mentoring should be built into the package as well.
The losses this winter have set us back a year.

Hi Jon
I agree 100%. Selling a nuc in July - an awful thing to do to a new beekeeper and the bees. Not at all professional from the seller!
Should be a beekeepers code against that sort of malpractice.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Hi MC.
I think overwintered nucs are better.
If a beginner does something daft and kills the queen, the colony is likely doomed ...


... I agree 100%. Selling a nuc in July - an awful thing to do to a new beekeeper and the bees. Not at all professional from the seller!
Should be a beekeepers code against that sort of malpractice.

Thanks both - I've taken note. If I want to fulfil my promise to the new beekeeper, I'll just have to let one of my hives go (they overwintered as hives - not nucs).
Kitta

[mbc]

Hi Jon
I agree 100%. Selling a nuc in July - an awful thing to do to a new beekeeper and the bees. Not at all professional from the seller!
Should be a beekeepers code against that sort of malpractice.

Tongue in cheek I hope !
Many beekeepers with the patience to restock with locally reared bees will only receive their stock in july, and many of the vendors will be totally well meaning without a hint of malpractice or unprofessionalism and will pass on good bees with a high probability of building up to successful overwintering colonies.

[Jon]

I still think a beginner getting a nuc in late April will have more chance than a beginner getting a nuc in July.
The problem is meeting demand - but if we could get ahead of ourselves with extra nucs to overwinter then April supply would be the norm.

[Trog]

Hi Jon
I agree 100%. Selling a nuc in July - an awful thing to do to a new beekeeper and the bees. Not at all professional from the seller!
Should be a beekeepers code against that sort of malpractice.

Depends where you are. A good nuc here would build up just fine in July and August, due to the excellent forage available. September and even October can also be good foraging months. Perhaps there's a certain predjudice due to the old saying about swarms ... Also depends on the type of bees, of course!

[drumgerry]

I have to agree Trog. Our main flow (ling) is in August and bees can build up fine through July (especially if there's a clover flow) and August in this area. Having said that an overwintered nuc has a proven queen and would be my preference any day of the week.

[The Drone Ranger]

I picked up a lot of info from this thread
It shows me that like MC I won't be helping anyone out with bees this year as Jun is upon us already
I'm amazed at the prices charged
The most I've ever charged was £70 and that included the Paynes Nuc.
That was year before last I'm sure
That one went in mid April and didn't have 4 frames of brood but I did say if it failed I would replace it
I was worried because I thought it was too early but the buyer wanted to take a chance
It was the best one of the 3 that I had brought through winter (the other 2 did ok as well)
I rang after a month or so to check with the chap and apparently it sailed away as expected

Another beeekeeper I know dropped an empty nuc off a last week he's lost almost all his bees and wants me to "bung a swarm in the box if I can" that's gratis so I don't think I need worry about it he is very experienced

[Calum]

No tongue in cheek at all.
On over wintered queen is proven, has the lowest varroa levels, and gives the recipient the chance of a crop and cast in the same year- so they have every chance to recoup the cost.

[The Drone Ranger]

It's true to say the East coast rape areas where boom follows bust are very different from the heather rich areas where the main flow is late season
So there can't be one nuc "to rule them all and in the darkness bind them"

I would be loath to take lots of nucs into our vile winters
Possibly that's part of the supply problem with local bees

[gavin]

So there can't be one nuc "to rule them all and in the darkness bind them"


Aha! Ultimately the one ring/rule had too much power and could not be sustained in the face of a mere Hobbit (or two).

Anyway, see here for the official SBA advice on nucs ...

http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/PracticalBeekeeping/TechnicalDataSheets.aspx

including ....

Ideally your Nucleus should be on 5 frames. In Scotland you should avoid getting a 3 frame Nuc after
the end of June, a 4 frame perhaps until mid-July. After this time the nucleus should be on 5 fully
drawn frames in order to allow it time to build up sufficiently for winter.

If you are on large format hives (Langstroth, British Commercial or Dadant) then the above 3, 4 & 5
BS frames can be translated to 2 up to mid-July and 3 thereafter as the frame sizes are much larger.
Ideally the bees you source should be from your area as bees become acclimatised to their local
environment. Use a reputable supplier and don't be afraid to ask for references.

Specification - A Good 5 BS Deep Frame Nucleus will:
Have a good quality, young laying queen – ideally from your area
Have all stages of brood
Have at least 3 frames with brood
Be free of signs of disease (ask advice of your local Bee Inspector)
Have at least 4 frames covered with bees
Have the equivalent of a full comb of stored honey and half a frame of pollen.
Have good quality frames and all frames fully drawn out
Have been examined by a competent person prior to purchase
Include a statement of what varroa treatments, if any, have been given

[Calum]

Mmm April one frame, may two, June three(at least), and after the solstice only shook swarms as otherwise they will be loathe to produce winter bees is the rule of thumb in Germany. I have yet to be disappointed. Going into winter on Six frames is the absolute minimum for overwintering in our local climate here at the feet of the alps

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Gavin

That seems to suggest 3 frames of brood up to mid July and beyond would be ok
Also that a 3 frame Nuc (never seen one) would be ok up to end of June

Wonder if the answer to shortages would be affordable 3 frame nuc's early season ?
Enter Frodo with hobbit sized nuc construction plans :)

Nucleus specs must be the work of the Nazgul

[prakel]

One problem with building up nucs is that beginners overfeed and the queen has nowhere to lay because the cells are full of sugar syrup.
Some of the advice given out to beginners on the bee forums is terrible.

Well, I didn't say anything about feeding (at all). My point is that nucs in my experience most certainly do build up quicker in two stacked nuc boxes than they do in a brood chamber. Not sure if this is really that terrible or not. What I do know is that I spent years (a couple of decades actually) doing it in what I now know to be the wrong way. OK, there's no right or wrong way -untill, that is, you realize that by doing something different you're getting consistantly better results



I think that none of the varied nuc box types I hold are capable (in their current state) of being stacked. Perhaps that would be a useful features, but not *that* useful!

Gavin, nuc boxes which aren't stackable (prob = fixed floors) are one of my personal pet-hates.

I can't see any benefit to fixed floors other than the claim of it being 'easier' to move the nucs but the people who use that reasoning always seem to have removeable roofs so I just don't get it.

:)

[Adam]

I've got a dozen or so plywood nucs and some have removable floors; I agree it's quite handy to be able to stack them - either if the colony is growing well or to unite two.

[gavin]

I was lucky enough to obtain four Paynes (Pains or Pa*nes for those who read another forum) nucs (version 2) with ekes when on sale last autumn. It hadn't occurred to me until now that means I do have stackable nuc boxes. Two ekes make one standard brood box, right?

[Jon]

Might take 3 rather than 2 but should work in principle if you have enough ekes. I have some so must check.

[GRIZZLY]

Might take 3 rather than 2 but should work in principle if you have enough ekes. I have some so must check.

I've done this when I was short of a hive for a rather large swarm. Yes it does take 3 Paynes ekes to form an upper chamber and has quite a wide gap between the tops and bottoms of the respective frames. Inevitably the bees fill the gap with brace comb with accompanying drones.This is useful for monitoring varroa. This stock successfully overwintered and now occupies a standard poly broodbox having dwindled somewhat this last winter.