Winter loss survey 2012/2013

[drumgerry]

Along with other association secretaries I've been emailed a survey form asking for details of this winter's losses - to be returned to Dr Chris Connolly. I think I probably complained enough about the conclusions taken from last year's results. So in order for the survey to be accurate and representative can everyone respond? It should come from your local association secretary if you're a member. But if you're not just PM me with your email address and I can send you a copy in Word format.

Personally I can't complete the survey yet as it's still too cold to do my first inspections!

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Drumgerry,
Weather still bad here but I will PM results when I can
So far though, and there's a long way to go things look ok
Would it be best to kind of settle on a date when the survey should take place ??

[Jon]

I think this year it should wait until May as there are loads of small colonies with little or no brood yet which may not make it.

[Trog]

I'm just about to do mine and have forwarded it to members with bees for them to complete and send their own. Still too cold for inspections here, too, but I'm basing it on colonies flying and ones I've already cleared up as they died!

[drumgerry]

DR - the survey has come from the SBA and I don't have anything to do with it. I think May would be a better time to assess losses as Jon says but the survey has opted to use April. Pm me when you get a chance.

[Jimbo]

Our association had planned to ask the members as they attend our next meeting at the end of April. I agree with Jon this might be a bit early this year as I know I have not looked in some of my hives for weeks, and only then to see if they had sufficient stores.

[Jon]

Any other year I could have answered by the middle of March.
I know several people thought their bees were fine as there was activity at the entrance - but when they checked there was a cluster about the size of an apple.

[Feckless Drone]

DR - I've lost the comment so not quoted. You mentioned/implied use of formic acid as a VD treatment (quiet at the back of the class!) in the West being more prevalent than in the East. Where did you get that info from? I do think that if formic can penetrate sealed brood then might be useful as spring treatment so I'm thinking about it. If our Westie friends have some info on this I'd be interested to hear.

[Jon]

Those new MAQS strips are based on formic aren't they?

[Trog]

I suppose if it's left any later it becomes 'spring losses' ... There is a box on the form for 'alive but weak' which would cover Jon's apple scenario.

Any survey is a bit like the Big Garden Birdwatch. You can almost guarantee that all the birds you see everyday will vanish from the garden on the day of the count. Thus, the publicity put out afterwards says that bird x is in serious decline when you know fine the 40 regular chaffinches or whatever were just elsewhere when you were doing your count! At best, a survey of living creatures is no more than a snapshot of the day you check them.

[The Drone Ranger]

DR - I've lost the comment so not quoted. You mentioned/implied use of formic acid as a VD treatment (quiet at the back of the class!) in the West being more prevalent than in the East. Where did you get that info from? I do think that if formic can penetrate sealed brood then might be useful as spring treatment so I'm thinking about it. If our Westie friends have some info on this I'd be interested to hear.

Well its just a supposition and its based on old information really
I haven't had the SBA mag for a year but most of the articles, advice, and recommendations for using Formic Acid treatments came from Eric McArthur who I think its fair to say also championed Oxalic acid

I am scared of Formic because its highly corrosive and need careful preparation and handling

Why?

Well one day I decided to mark a queen using a little bottle of Thorne's Queen marking fluid and a small stick
So out comes the frame with the queen, on goes the marking cage ,and my marking eye is in -- job done!
Only now I'm so pleased with myself I forget the bottle is still sitting on the edge of the open brood box, I knock it into the hive, and end up with dozens of marked bees all masquerading as the queen.
The moral of the story is "If things can go wrong they will" and if that involves acid they might go very wrong indeed
Most treatments you can just jump right in, but I think Formic might be one where getting some good advice first could matter

this sounds a bit preachy when I read it back so I'll just add " with a hey nonnie noh !" to lighten the mood :)

[The Drone Ranger]

Those new MAQS strips are based on formic aren't they?

They are,wonder how much they cost?

[Jon]

Very expensive. I think it was something like £9 per colony

Edit

Thorne press release (http://www.thorne.co.uk/image/data/Documents/MAQS%20Press%20Release.pdf) on MAQS

[The Drone Ranger]

Very expensive. I think it was something like £9 per colony

Bit steep -- formic is pretty dear to buy by the Ltr as well though.
It's one of those things I leave to the experts (and there aren't many of them)
I don't want to end up like this :cool:

[Calum]

I worked out it costs about 45p a colony to do the formic and oxalic treatments.
If you use 60% formic its not that agressive (http://www.bienchens-imkerladen.de/Ameisensaeure-60-Prozent-ad-us-vet) (i avoid the 80% treatments as I see they damage the open brood too much).
Oxalic solution with sugar is a doddle if you by the preperation pre mixed.

I believe these are subsidised medications (by the EU) so should be cheaply available though associations (at least they are throughout germany).

[Jon]

We mix up the Oxalic and sugar in our association for members and gave out about 6 litres in December.

[gavin]

I believe these are subsidised medications (by the EU) so should be cheaply available though associations (at least they are throughout germany).

That's interesting. One of the choices in the Scottish Government's recent consultation on spending EU funds was this option. It sounds as if it is a subsidy open to all beekeepers in local associations?

G.

[nemphlar]

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;17300]Bit steep -- formic is pretty dear to buy by the Ltr as well though.
It's one of those things I leave to the experts (and there aren't many of them)

Bonymans of Ayrshire will do FA at £20/5litres. Pound shop will do Tupperware dishes and sponges for dispensing. Having tried thymol as an autumn treatment last year that stopped the queens laying, I'll go back to trying a mid year formic treatment.

[The Drone Ranger]

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;17300]Bit steep -- formic is pretty dear to buy by the Ltr as well though.
It's one of those things I leave to the experts (and there aren't many of them)

Bonymans of Ayrshire will do FA at £20/5litres. Pound shop will do Tupperware dishes and sponges for dispensing. Having tried thymol as an autumn treatment last year that stopped the queens laying, I'll go back to trying a mid year formic treatment.

I haven't bought any for years so I'm sure you are right I was robbed, and now the unused bottles are in negative equity--depressed
If thymol doesn't float your boat that's fine by me I don't have any shares in Thornes :)

[The Drone Ranger]

Just for clarity
I bought formic acid some years ago from Lindchem who appear to have been taken over since so that will tell you how long ago it was.
I think it was £8-50 per bottle which was 500ml of 85% lab grade Formic acid
There was £20 delivery by special courier on top

If folk are using it and they like it and get it cheap thats great

I am a the sort of person who managed to get thymol in the eye when just adding it to syrup
That leads me to conclude Formic might be better left to the expert user

I tried it on a couple of occasions and thought what a palaver absorbent boards, diluting acids, hole punching plastic bags, wooden strips over brood frames, Ekes to make room under the crownboard,sealing the hive,checking the temperature to calculate dosage --
I though this is not for me and I'm sh--t scared of the stuff when I'm handling it

I'm not saying anything about whether it works or doesn't and it appears you can buy it cheaply by the gallon now
So if folks like it and wan't to use it great knock yourselves out when nothing else works I'll be joining you

What I am saying is I think there is a difference between the varroa treatments used on the East Coast of Scotland and the West could that be a factor in colony losses
They are collecting this data at Dundee as well so we could just wait and see I suppose

[Calum]

The very different climates too!

[gavin]

Along with other association secretaries I've been emailed a survey form asking for details of this winter's losses - to be returned to Dr Chris Connolly. I think I probably complained enough about the conclusions taken from last year's results. So in order for the survey to be accurate and representative can everyone respond? ........

For those who do decide to respond, you might consider, as Drumgerry has done, adding your own comments. Dr Connolly has said a lot in the press about a possible link to pesticide exposure and I suppose that it is possible that he only speaks to beekeepers who are firmly of that sort of view. I tried in my small way to try to correct that by getting him to meet the biggest beekeeper in Scotland, but the suggestion wasn't well received.

So if you are going to send him data, let him know your views as to why any colonies died. I haven't yet decided whether to send him my data. Impartial epidemiological type research just doesn't seem to be his thing. Another issue I have is that there is no definition of what constitutes a colony. I had one which was far too small to survive the winter, and it didn't. Was that also a 'colony'? It is very clear that colony strength has been one very important factor this last winter and you really need to know how strong or weak were the colonies that were lost.

There was chat at the Perth meeting last night of winter losses. The beekeepers in the room generally didn't feel that the winter losses are disastrous (however hardly anyone has had a good look yet) but there was talk of heavy losses in the commercial sector.

[The Drone Ranger]

Gavin I think you should send data
Drumgerry kindly sent me the form-- wish I had done it last year as it would have improved the east coast results
I wondered a little about the colony thing as well because I brought two late swarms through winter in Paynes Nucs
They are both alive and kicking at the moment no stores though so I put a honey patty on both
That honey was not strained with lots of pollen etc in it (I wouldn't do that as a rule in case I spread disease)
I expect them to survive but you never can tell
If the only people responding to a UFO survey were people who had burned a witch I wouldn't trust the result :)

[Jon]

This is the way to do a study looking at winter losses.

Gerersch et al (http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/abs/2010/03/m09161/m09161.html)

The German Bee monitoring project
Apidologie
Volume 41, Number 3, May-June 2010
Honey bee health

abstract


The Western honey bee, Apis mellifera, is the most important animal pollinator in agriculture worldwide providing more than 90% of the commercial pollination services. Due to the development in agriculture the demands for honey bee pollination are steadily increasing stressing the pollination capacity of the global managed honey bee population. Hence, the long-term decline of managed honey bee hives in Europe and North-America is of great concern and stimulated intensive research into the possible factors presumably causing honey bee colony collapse. We here present a four-year study involving more than 1200 bee colonies from about 120 apiaries which were monitored for the entire study period. Bee samples were collected twice a year to analyze various pathogenic factors including the ectoparasitic mite Varroa destructor, fungi (Nosema spec., Ascosphaera apis), the bacterium Paenibacillus larvae, and several viruses. Data on environmental factors, beekeeping management practice, and pesticides were also collected. All data were statistically analyzed in respect to the overwintering mortality of the colonies. We can demonstrate for several factors that they are significantly related to the observed winter losses of the monitored honey bee colonies: (i) high varroa infestation level, (ii) infection with deformed wing virus (DWV) and acute bee paralysis virus (ABPV) in autumn, (iii) queen age, and (iv) weakness of the colonies in autumn. No effects could be observed for Nosema spec. or pesticides. The implications of these findings will be discussed.

[Mellifera Crofter]

In case you've overlooked the last pages of the April Scottish Beekeeper, the survey (the April 2013 survey form) is published there. (I suppose it's the same survey - and sorry if somebody has already mentioned it.)
Kitta

[Black Comb]

On the BK forum Murray McGregor said that those exposed to the nasty east wind last summer were suffering the most losses.

[The Drone Ranger]

thanks Jon that was a really good article and worth reading the whole thing
Often these studies are shrouded in advance techno mumbo jumbo but this paper was clear and informative.
Calum was right the German beekeeping project is streets ahead with a comprehensive winter losses monitoring program

[Jon]

The German study recorded the varroa and nosema levels in 1200 colonies over several years, and looked for 5 different bee viruses.
It also sampled bee bread for pollen content and pesticide residue.

The Scottish survey (last year) made a note of colony deaths via questionnaire but looks more like a GCSE biology project than a serious piece of research.
It recorded the data from one winter, ignoring a load of important variables such as those in the Genersch study relating to mites, nosema and viruses, then speculated that neonicotinoids make the difference in mortality between East and West. The sample size was miniscule and ignored the data from the largest bee farmer in Scotland who claims that his bees do far better when exposed to oil seed rape. Whatever it is, it is not science as I understand it. Maybe this year there will be more relevant data collected to isolate all the variables. But you cannot ask a beekeeper to guess about varroa, nosema or virus levels. This has to be measured in a standardized manner.

[Trog]

For those who do decide to respond, you might consider, as Drumgerry has done, adding your own comments. Dr Connolly has said a lot in the press about a possible link to pesticide exposure and I suppose that it is possible that he only speaks to beekeepers who are firmly of that sort of view. ..

Not so, Gavin. He speaks to the likes of me and I've returned the survey. There is space on the form to record 'weak' colonies and also plenty of space for saying why any colony died out. If people don't return the forms, they shouldn't complain later on that the sample was too small to be significant, eh?

[Mellifera Crofter]

... and there's a form on the website (http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/Practical%20Beekeeping/Dundee%20SBA%20Overwinter%20April%202013%20v2.pdf) . (I assume this is the survey you're talking about.)
K

[The Drone Ranger]

Not so, Gavin. He speaks to the likes of me and I've returned the survey. There is space on the form to record 'weak' colonies and also plenty of space for saying why any colony died out. If people don't return the forms, they shouldn't complain later on that the sample was too small to be significant, eh?

Guilty as charged in my case anyway Trog :)
My only excuse is I'm not really an SBA member
I was a bit disappointed that so much of the available funding went to one project
But from now on I'll be inside the tent....etc etc

Hi Mellifera Crofter checked your link and it's the same form

[The Drone Ranger]

On the BK forum Murray McGregor said that those exposed to the nasty east wind last summer were suffering the most losses.

Yes because not only had they lost their bees but their lower appendages as well :)

[Jon]

The UBKA distributes a similar form every year but it just provides a snapshot of colony losses in any given winter.
Winter 2011-2012 had minimal losses yet this winter will show heavy losses.
Local agriculture has not changed from one year to the next but the weather certainly has and we also have pyrethroid resistant mites spreading.

[EmsE]

Although diseases seem to be taken into account, I would like to see if there was a significant difference in the losses between imported colonies/ queens and the native ones. At a guess I would suspect that there are more imported colonies in the East so wouldn't this also be a valid point to take account of too.

[Trog]

You're quite right. I think this could make a significant difference in 'bad' winters. Not so just 'native' AMM vs others but perhaps locally-acclimatised versus imported even from another UK area. I suppose it would be fair to say there are many more beekeepers in the East/central belt than in the west or north. So many variables but you never know what might be found out when data's collected. Patterns emerge, even when the details are not necessarily relevant to the question being asked.

[Pete L]

So many variables but you never know what might be found out when data's collected.

I wonder how many NZ Carniolan colonies are now dead in Scotland, it would be interesting to know if it has been higher than AMM type.

[prakel]

You're quite right. I think this could make a significant difference in 'bad' winters. Not so just 'native' AMM vs others but perhaps locally-acclimatised versus imported even from another UK area. I suppose it would be fair to say there are many more beekeepers in the East/central belt than in the west or north. So many variables but you never know what might be found out when data's collected. Patterns emerge, even when the details are not necessarily relevant to the question being asked.

As importantly, once the basic survival percentages had been worked out we would then need know which of the surviving colonies went on to do better (in an over all sense) through the coming season. That information could, possibly, be bad news to for anyone hoping to stop/limit imports. Way too much short term research in beekeeping for my liking; lets look at long term trends not short term losses.

[The Drone Ranger]

I wonder how many NZ Carniolan colonies are now dead in Scotland, it would be interesting to know if it has been higher than AMM type.
Hi Pete mine are probably very hybridised with carniolan but they don't die in cold winters
Might be different for NZ new imported queens couldn't say on that
I'm out of my comfort zone now with this endless Winter weather here so bees may suffer

[Jon]

It can be tough to work out though.
I imagine some F1 crosses between bee races produce very hardy hybrids but the vigour will be short lived.
A comparison between pure race bees would be very useful as there are a lot of claims made about disease resistance and susceptibility.
The native bee people (like myself) often make claims about AMM being hardier etc and it would be nice to get some clear evidence on that one way or another. When you trace back the claims, they often originate with Beowulf Cooper and it would be good to have his observations backed up with something more concrete.
I suspect that external factors such as varroa levels are likely to mask many of the difference between bee races.

[drumgerry]

Now wouldn't that be a great use of government research money rather than the endless , narrow focus on pesticides?

[madasafish]

When I had pure (?) Carniolans in 2010-11 they survived -18C winters well. All my bee types survive winter well no signs of differentiation whether mongrel/Buckfast hybrid or plan mongrel. Never had Italians so can't comment on them.

I suspect apart from Italians, little practical differences.. And they are already largely known imo.

[EmsE]

I wouldn't think that looking into this is a short term issue. If your imported bees have a lower chance of survival (whether imported from outwith Scotland or the local area) then it is certainly something people could take into consideration when sourcing their bees. Looking at the race of the bees would be really interesting but could only be compared on a fair basis that they are equally acclimatised to the area.

If you suffer a higher rate of import losses than from those colonies sourced locally, then would the higher honey yeilds be significant enough to compensate for the higher loss of colonies?

The NBU are notified of all imports from outwith the UK so there is data being kept.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

[prakel]

Anything that includes colony losses in their first year is short term and in my oppinion, worthless; I even include nucs made up for sale with home bred bees in this. Way too many variables starting with the individual beekeepers.

Also, what value would such data be if imported colonies were proven to fare better under skilled management while local bees 'survive' inspite of bad management. Just one possible outcome of such research.


If you suffer a higher rate of import losses than from those colonies sourced locally
I'd hazard a guess that a great many locally sourced colonies and queens soon perish in the hands of bad beekeepers in the same manner as the imported queens which are unfortunate enough to be bought by people who have more surplus cash than brains.

[The Drone Ranger]

Scotland's Arab spring?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22260836

[Mellifera Crofter]

Interesting video, Drone Ranger. We were driving through a similar sand storm near Macduff the other day - just red all around us and no visibility. Right now I think I live in The Desert of Aberdeenshire. Sand storms; no forage ... What are the bees to do?
Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Mellifera Crofter

Weather is strange but sandstorms are a new one on me :)

I've spoken to a couple of beekeepers this year and both had lost all or most of their bees
wonder how the losses survey will turn out

[janesik]

I wonder how late it will be before we know how well our colonies are really doing. At beginning of march (checking feed) I had one strong colony and two reasonable ones. In them yesterday (balmy Ayrshire sun - 15°C)-now one strong colony & two weak ones - a lot of dead bees on floors - one has old queen so not unexpected but the other has a young queen and I think there were just not enough bees to see them through 6 weeks of cold weather and even now they are struggling to forage and keep brood warm.