Swarm trap

[marion.orca]

Has anyone tried or had any experience of the Swarm Trap that Thornes have in their new catalogue ? How efficient have you found them ? I'm considering getting one, but would just like to sound them out first for the pros and cons - thanks.

[Dark Bee]

Someone I know has one. I have not had the opportunity to quizz him (lucky he):). He has I know expressed the opinion that it is too small, but has worked as the queen has been restrained and the swarm hung off it.
My opinion is that it is very expensive and is no more than a simplified and inferior version of the old drone trap. It is more convenient to use than an excluder under the brood box and would work in a similar manner. As a temporary measure, it is likely to be adequate; i.e use it if the bees are likely to swarm so that your colony is not decimated when you return in the late afternoon. I enjoyed your post - you have me thinking now :cool:

[marion.orca]

Thanks for the reply Dark Bee, I would be keen to know if you get the opportunity to quiz your friend and apart from being too small, his other views on it too. I know that there will be nothing to beat the beekeepers vigilance and preventative methods chosen, but I have a hive where it is just imperative that no swarming happens - a hard won by site which I am just not willing to give up, so it would be as a safety measure really. With all the best intentions in the world and observations etc, as we all know, bees can and will outfox us !

[Black Comb]

Not heard of this until now Marion. My cynical view is that if it was good we would have all heard about it.
I suppose it's an alternative to inspecting in the rain (as you have to sometimes)

[Bumble]

Could you try using something like the anti swarm system on Modern Beekeeping? It's basically a three and a half sided eke above the queen excluder. http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/item/499/queen-trap-anti-swarm-system and this pdf http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/graphics/cms/Queen%20Trap%20Instructions.pdf I don't think it's 100% folproof, but I don't think any system is.

[Calum]

Mmm. Wouldn't recommend wasting money on any of that. Better be a better aparist... Help your bees do what you, they and nature want! Just keep them in check by making new colonies. There are at least two methods that even my wife could manage (she puts up with my beekeeping), neither of which would affect honey harvested.
If you want to keep your site, I'd suggest an artificial swarm by moving the hive 3ft and leaving in its place a hive with food and pollen, one frame of brood in all phases with attending bees, and the rest empty frames. Do this when queen cups are polished on a day they are flying well. Break out all but three queen cells a week later, about three weeks later your new queen should be laying.... Less expense hassle and equipment, and your site is doubly secure ;)

[Black Comb]

Another alternative is to Demaree when they are getting strong.

[Bumble]

alternative is to Demaree when they are getting strong.
I agree.

A Demaree, a walkaway split or an artificial swarm as described by Calum is more likely to work but I'm not so sure about leaving 3 intact queencells.

[Calum]

I'd leave three open ones if I could (from youngest brood), so long as they are well spread out they'll be different ages and should end up hatching at different times, gives the first more time to kill the other two. Shouldn't be a problem when they are all on the same frame. Thanks for the terms, I only learnt to be a beekeeper in Germany so don't know the terms in english!

[marion.orca]

All good stuff - thanks for all the excellent views and advice.

[Beefever]

This might not be for everyone but since I started clipping the queen’s wings I’ve not lost a swarm. I still do regular inspections and it wouldn’t prevent casts but does give you more time.

[Dark Bee]

I've just had a look at the swarm trap and asked the owner a few questions. It is the width of a hive and approximately 5" high and deep, it is deeper than it is high. The front is covered with wire queen excluder, which is hinged to open. The back also is covered with QX which curves away from the hive front and at the bottom there is a plastic bee escape into the trap - this looks suspiciously like a shoulder from a small square plastic drinks bottle. The essential point to note here is that once the queen leaves the hive she cannot return, this is the fundamental difference between the trap and a QE placed under the brood box. It has been used in a few situations where swarming was imminent and held the queen with a few bees and the swarm hanging on the outside, the suggestion for something larger was prompted by the hope that the top part could be blanked off and the swarm would cluster inside it. I intend to make something of the sort for my wife to use, if I am away one day and bees start to sound as if they intend to swarm!!!


If you are already aware of these swarm prevention measures please forgive me mentioning them.

1. Requeen every year with a Q. from a non swarming strain - this will dramatically reduce swarming, useful in a sensitive area.
2. Clip one of the Q's wings. Use a crown of thorns, move her onto an area of flat honey and trap her. Get one wing through the mesh and cut off 1/2 - 2/3. Do not and I repeat do not hold her in your fingers and get her back into the hive as soon as possible.
3. If you can hang a couple of hive roofs or quickly made copies, in the shade in the vicinity of the hive, with a used topbar fixed underneath - you may attract a swarm if it does issue.
4. Learn to make an artifical swarm. It will be easier if you remember that in the classic a.f. the old queen remains in the old location. There are many variations, but that is the one you should learn first

I realise that some of the above has already been identified by other posters and in no way am I attempting to detract from what they said. If you would like an elaboration on any of the above please feel free to ask. I can recall drone traps on CDB hives from years ago - so the concept of a queen trap is not that innovative!

[Jon]

Good tips DB.
The important thing is to be proactive in preventing swarms.
It is much easier to do an artificial swarm at the right time than to go scrabbling about at the top of a ladder trying to retrieve one.

I used to use a crown of thorns but I now prefer the plunger cage for both marking and clipping queens.
I find the queen on her frame, lay it flat the guide her into the cage before holding her still with the plunger for marking and clipping.
You can then tease out one of the wings between the cross wires and clip off the tip.
I like this method as you can walk 20 feet away from the hive so the queen can be marked and clipped in peace without the bees getting all over the cage.

1461

[Pete L]

There used to be a similar type of swarm entrance trap available, i have a couple some place but cannot think of the name of them atm, they consist of a deep box which tapers out about 6 inches in the lower section, with slotted zinc excluder over this lower narrow section/entrance, the top box contains two full size nation brood combs,with hinged lid above.
The bees swarm as normal but queen cannot escape,so she goes up onto the two brood combs,bees then return and also join the queen on these two combs,just open the hinged lid and remove the two combs of bees and queen into another box.

[gavin]

Maybe this isn't the thread to ask it, but what do people use to clip the queen's wings? I used nail scissors last year but they weren't that good. Do nail clippers work?

[Jon]

Queen clipping snips (http://www.buzzybeeshop.co.uk/page13.html).

[drumgerry]

Same as Jon. Although I got them as embroidery thread snips from Ebay.

[Dark Bee]

[QUOTE=Pete L;16699]...................................., they consist of a deep box which tapers out about 6 inches in the lower section, with slotted zinc excluder over this lower narrow section/entrance, the top box contains two full size nation brood combs,with hinged lid above............................................. ..............................

I find that immensely interesting Pete, in fact the the original post in this thread had gotten me wondering if something of the sort would work. Please post any information you have and perhaps a photo if at all possible.

I use a small scissors to clip the queen, only one wing is done. I have encountered a swarm a long way from any apiary where the queen had both wings clipped. For those who are a little inexperienced - practise on drones and when clipping a queen; before the axe falls be certain there is not a leg also about to be amputated.

[Black Comb]

Anyone used a Taranov board.
Looks like a nice experiment if I ever have my colonies back up to strength.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/taranovswm.html

[Pete L]

[QUOTE=Pete L;16699]
I find that immensely interesting Pete, in fact the the original post in this thread had gotten me wondering if something of the sort would work. Please post any information you have and perhaps a photo if at all possible.


Taken me a while to remember the proper name for these swarm catchers, they are called the Brice swarm catcher,really old, but i found they worked very well, but not used them for many years now.
Here is a link to a brief bit about them,but no pics, right at bottom of page on the left.

http://www.hwbka.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/HWBKA-Jan-2011-Newsletter.pdf

And there was a short thread which mentions them on BBKA forum.

http://www.bbka.org.uk/members/forum.php?t=1185

[gavin]

Queen clipping snips (http://www.buzzybeeshop.co.uk/page13.html).

Thanks guys. It is high time I put in a Buzzy Bee Shop (http://www.buzzybeeshop.co.uk/index.html) order.

[Dark Bee]

[QUOTE=Black Comb;16712]Anyone used a Taranov board............................................. .............................
Yes I used a Taranov board, purely as an experiment in the interests of scientific research, you understand. It has the not inconsiderable advantage of being cheap and easy to make. I found it to be a good way of "bleeding" off a swarm if one was to be away for a few days or if a swarm which was emerging ran into a localised shower of rain and repaired to the hive for shelter - they could be usefully introduced to the good Mr Taranov when the "rain" stopped.

[Bumble]

[QUOTE=Black Comb;16712]Anyone used a Taranov board............................................. .............................
Yes I used a Taranov board, purely as an experiment in the interests of scientific research, you understand. It has the not inconsiderable advantage of being cheap and easy to make. I found it to be a good way of "bleeding" off a swarm if one was to be away for a few days or if a swarm which was emerging ran into a localised shower of rain and repaired to the hive for shelter - they could be usefully introduced to the good Mr Taranov when the "rain" stopped.

Would you use it again?

[Dark Bee]

[QUOTE=Dark Bee;16719]

Would you use it again?

Yes I would. It is my belief that a taranov swarm is as close to a natural swarm as one can get. A natural swarm i.e. the one hanging off a tree branch, contains bees of all ages, perhaps a preponderance of wax builders and younger bees. Whatever the exact make up is, I don't think it can be replicated accurately by an artificial swarm, I often wonder if that is the reason why an artificial swarm sometimes absconds.
If one is fortunate enough to be about when a hive is at the point of swarming; bees climbing around the face of the hive or circling and are then driven back into the hive with an "artificial shower", a taranov s. made then should be very satisfactory.
From what I've seen, if the bees are close to swarming the Taranov board works very well and the further they are from swarming the smaller the swarm will be. The other disadvantage is one will have a disproportionate amount of hive bees - these will be inhibited from flying back because of the gap between board and hive and the brood must suffer as a result - just my own thoughts. One thing I may experiment with, is somehow having a nuc box under the board to save having to shake the bees into a hive / box. Getting them ready packaged is advantageous:). Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Bumble]

I've only read about doing this, and thought it was something I might try this year.


One thing I may experiment with, is somehow having a nuc box under the board to save having to shake the bees into a hive / box. Getting them ready packaged is advantageous:). Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
I thought I might try doing the same, using a box with a lid partly open, with frames inside.

I couldn't see any reason why the nuc shouldn't be positioned at 90 degrees to the original hive, with a board resting on top above an opening in the lid.

But, I've never done it and so don't really know the potential pitfalls - or is that the wrong word to use?

[Dark Bee]

Dave Cushman hinted at having designed a box or lid of some sort to use with this board. He never published details, so perhaps he did not complete it or there were problems still to be overcome. Unless someone has some information and shares it, we have a blank canvas.
The pitfall :) with your proposed setup could possibly be the propensity of bees to travel upwards rather than downwards. The opposite way to rain is how a rather erudite chap was once heard describing it!
Perhaps if the nuc was parallel to the hive and at the very end of the ramp i.e. 4" from the hive and the bees had no choice but to walk over the top bars it might work? Another thought is, having something to trap the queen and hold her - there would be a cluster around her which could possibly hang into the nuc.? Just thoughts - any others from anybody?

[Black Comb]

The box under sounds good but in practice it is not that difficult to shake a swarm into a box. They are usually a bit "dopey" and soon settle down.

[The Drone Ranger]

Raining again today ggrrrr!!
looks like swarming will be the least of my worries this season :)

[madasafish]

We are forecast to have a week of cold and windy weather.. after 3 days of warm weather. Ideal conditions to promote swarming.

Bait hive located 4 meters up a dead willow tree.. on a bee flight path - to a load of lime trees which will soon be in flower.

[The Drone Ranger]

We are forecast to have a week of cold and windy weather.. after 3 days of warm weather. Ideal conditions to promote swarming.

Bait hive located 4 meters up a dead willow tree.. on a bee flight path - to a load of lime trees which will soon be in flower.

best of luck getting that bait hive full of bees down again :)
You will have had better weather down you way than up here I suspect
Even in a good year it would be the end of May before the first capped queen cell here

[madasafish]

best of luck getting that bait hive full of bees down again :)
You will have had better weather down you way than up here I suspect
Even in a good year it would be the end of May before the first capped queen cell here

We are about 5 weeks behind normal.. but two hives have 5 + frames of brood due to syrup feeding and lots of willow pollen - still ongoing..(normally ends by April).
And our Victoria plum is blossoming now - so we may get some fruit - it has been frosted prior years. Crab apples is just starting to flower- usually finished by early April. No sign of May blossom at all.

Looks like a bumper crop of fruit is possible if we get a good summer (and some rain - very dry April)...

A number of DLQs and hives queenless even where losses have not been severe..

[Bumble]

Dave Cushman hinted at having designed a box or lid of some sort to use with this board. He never published details, so perhaps he did not complete it or there were problems still to be overcome. Unless someone has some information and shares it, we have a blank canvas.
The pitfall :) with your proposed setup could possibly be the propensity of bees to travel upwards rather than downwards. The opposite way to rain is how a rather erudite chap was once heard describing it!
Perhaps if the nuc was parallel to the hive and at the very end of the ramp i.e. 4" from the hive and the bees had no choice but to walk over the top bars it might work? Another thought is, having something to trap the queen and hold her - there would be a cluster around her which could possibly hang into the nuc.? Just thoughts - any others from anybody?
More thoughts, based on the fact that I've only ever done artificial swarms (which is meant to mimic a real swarm because it keeps the flyers with the queen) and what were effectively walkaway splits because I'm rubbish at seeing queens.

This (taranov) method separates the flying bees from the non-flying house bees, but keeps all the house bees with the queen rather than leaving them with the brood. Is that a pitfall? Would a lot of the brood be lost because these older bees are inefficient nurses?

The taranov board makes the bees walk up a ramp, so that's the 'up' bit covered. When they get to the top they either fly across the gap, which I presume has to be no less than four inches wide but wider would mean fewer bees trying to make ladders to cross it. The non-flying bees have either got to learn to fly very quickly, or they're stuck, so follow the queen who's meant to be so desperate to get out of the sunlight that she walks beneath the board and hangs onto a piece of rope. I can't see why she, and they, wouldn't be happier going into a nice little nuc that already has a frame of brood. It might look like a pitfall trap, but it's much more friendly.


The box under sounds good but in practice it is not that difficult to shake a swarm into a box. They are usually a bit "dopey" and soon settle down.
Are the bees from a shook swarm or an artificial swarm as dopey as those from a real swarm?

[Black Comb]

No, so it depends what mode they are in when under the board.

[The Drone Ranger]

We are about 5 weeks behind normal..

It's murder I'm hoping like you are for a decent Summer this year not like the wet washout we had last year

[Bumble]

I found a couple of bloggers who have used taranov boards.

One is Chris Slade, who's in Dorset http://chrissladesbeeblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/fun-with-taranov/

The other is in USA, and has several posts about it - one (http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-to-prevent-swarming-with-a-taranov-board/), two (http://www.honeybeesuite.com/the-great-divide-a-taranov-split/) and three (http://www.honeybeesuite.com/another-take-on-taranov/). The last two have pictures.

[Bumble]

I did a Taranov split today. I was quite surprised that it went fairly smoothly, and the bees did what they were meant to do - almost.

I made the board from a two bits of correx, doubled up for strength, nailed onto some fence post offcuts. I nailed a bit of rough timber beneath the correx. One cloth onto the ground beneath the board to cover up the unstrimmed grass and weeds, a larger cloth over the top.

Shook and brushed all the bees of the existing frames, and waited to see what would happen. It took about an hour for them to finish sorting themselves out - the clustering bees didn't bother using the strip of wood but gathered around one of the 'legs'.

Once they'd settled I put a brood box (containing one frame of eggs/brood, a couple of frames of stores, the rest of the frames are new foundation) on top of the board - with a handy gap for them to move upwards, and went off to paint some new boxes. An hour or so later they were all inside. New brood box put onto new floor etc., fairly close to, but not in line with, the original colony. By dusk there were a few bees orientating and some bringing back pollen.

I didn't see the queen, but their behaviour suggested she had done what she is supposed to do, and had hidden beneath the board and then took the first chance to move upwards into a nice dark box.

I'm planning to combine later, but knowing my luck something will go wrong.

[Dark Bee]

Well done. Bees will move up into a box readily enough, getting them to go down into one is difficult. It sounds as if your bees were not too far from swarming. Any Q. cells? How big was the split in relation to the full colony?

[Calum]

Sounds terrible. Not in accordance with the principles of magazine bee keeping at all.
Why not just use the brood seperation method?

[The Drone Ranger]

I'm still using a cardboard box , a ladder and secateurs :)
Stone age

[Dark Bee]

I'm still using a cardboard box , a ladder and secateurs :)
Stone age

How is your flint knapping? Should be able to make quite a sharp pair of secateurs with flakes of flint.
Astone age ladder might be a trifle too heavy for comfort.:rolleyes:

[The Drone Ranger]

Done me back right in

I Like the animation on your flag :)

[Dark Bee]

Done me back right in

I Like the animation on your flag :)

I trust the two events are unconnected!

[gavin]

I Like the animation on your flag :)

I much preferred the red squirrel superglued to the side of a tree.

[Mellifera Crofter]

I much preferred the red squirrel superglued to the side of a tree.

Oh - not a Sasquatch at all! Thanks for letting us know.
Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

I wonder what the flag is ??

I was diluting glacial acetic acid today what a flippin carry on

[Dark Bee]

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;18492]I wonder what the flag is ??

Wonder no more ( it is good of you to wonder), for it is the cross of Saint Patrick.

[The Drone Ranger]

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;18492]I wonder what the flag is ??

Wonder no more ( it is good of you to wonder), for it is the cross of Saint Patrick.

The chap who drove the snakes out of Ireland

I in my ignorance thought it was the red cross

[gavin]

You are making me nervous. I don't understand all the nuances of the flags (flahgs in Ulster I suppose) in use on the island of Ireland but I do understand that if you fly the 'wrong' one on a council building people are likely to stop watching Eastenders and take to the streets instead. Whole Facebook channels have been devoted to the topic. Flags are a serious business in Ireland. Why not the widely respected Irish tricolour?

It is a strange country right enough. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12769581)


Oh - not a Sasquatch at all! Thanks for letting us know.
Kitta

Now that I've a minute to spare I finally Googled to see what a Sasquatch is. I reckon that Bigfoot is a little too heavy to be superglued to the side of a tree. Red squirrel. Tufty.

[The Drone Ranger]

I see a new craze developing now
DB has taken avatars to another level :0

[Jon]

(flahgs in Ulster I suppose)


Fleg is the proper pronuciation.

Q. What did St Patrick say as he drove the snakes out of Ireland?
A. Are yiz all right in the back there?

Anyone getting worked up about a fleg should be fed to DB's Tree hugging Doberman(n)

[Dark Bee]

You are making me nervous. .................................................. ...............................

There was no need to be nervous, so I changed the avatar.

[The Drone Ranger]

Boo Hiss
that was an excellent 8 frame Gif (I believe)
I've had hours of fun watching the flag waving while I practice my Yogic flying etc

Yesterday afternoon the crop sprayers were out spraying the oil seed rape
There were not many bees out and about, but 2 hours later there were as weather improved
Hope its nothing too nasty they were spraying

[Dark Bee]

[QUOTE=Dark Bee;18493]

The chap who drove the snakes out of Ireland

I in my ignorance thought it was the red cross

Well now I think it is the Cross of St. Patrick. But it could be the Cross of St. George or the Cross of St Andrew. I choose it to help those who were unable to recognise a tree climbing dobermann, the waving of the flag should have given a good hint of what it was.

[gavin]

Sorry about that DR. Can't find one on the web but this should be close enough:

http://images.hellokids.com/_uploads/_tiny_galerie/20100207/irish-flag-source_re2.gif

Your yogic flying is safe.

Is that the red squirrel then DB? Or perhaps a horse?

[Dark Bee]

...............................................Is that the red squirrel then DB? Or perhaps a horse?

No just the head of a dobermann (my wifes) - a Russian import.
P.S. it is the dog that came from Russia; not my wife. Isn't ambiguity a terrible thing :rolleyes:

[The Drone Ranger]

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;18494]

Well now I think it is the Cross of St. Patrick. But it could be the Cross of St. George or the Cross of St Andrew. I choose it to help those who were unable to recognise a tree climbing dobermann, the waving of the flag should have given a good hint of what it was.

I know the eyesight has suffered with terrible wear and tear over the years
I blame the thymol splashes coupled with old age
I'm Missing the flag badly now
Can the doberman waggle his ears or something

[The Drone Ranger]

Sorry about that DR. Can't find one on the web but this should be close enough:

http://images.hellokids.com/_uploads/_tiny_galerie/20100207/irish-flag-source_re2.gif

Your yogic flying is safe.

Is that the red squirrel then DB? Or perhaps a horse?


On the STV news tonight there were some schoolkids learning about bees from an observation hive
Did you happen to see it :)

[Dark Bee]

[QUOTE=Dark Bee;18504]

.................................................. ..................................
Can the doberman waggle his ears or something

He can certainly waggle his lower jaw with considerable force, he is looking in your direction and muttering something about sparing ink.

[gavin]

On the STV news tonight there were some schoolkids learning about bees from an observation hive
Did you happen to see it :)

Not I.


Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

[The Drone Ranger]

Not I.
Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk
http://player.stv.tv/programmes/news-at-six-dundee-tayside/2013-05-29-1800/
this is the program jump forward about 13 min

[Bumble]

Well done. Bees will move up into a box readily enough, getting them to go down into one is difficult. It sounds as if your bees were not too far from swarming. Any Q. cells? How big was the split in relation to the full colony?
About a third stayed with the queen.

Checked today. She's laying, which is a relief!


Sounds terrible. Not in accordance with the principles of magazine bee keeping at all.
Why not just use the brood seperation method?
Because I wanted to try it, to see if it woould work. I'm also rubbish at finding the queen, so shaking them was a risk.

[Little_John]

I had no idea that you guys had been discussing Swarm Traps until yesterday when someone kindly tipped me off.

I don't know if it's relevant to you, but on another forum I had posted:


It seems to me that the underlying premise behind Artificial Swarming is flawed, for the bees clearly do not experience some vital component of the natural swarming process.
In an A/S the older foragers will continue to 'return from whence they came', but following a genuine swarm they will not return. Now that's quite a difference.

I have no idea what it is that causes the bees to have their 'hive auto-locator' re-set, but it might be something quite simple, such as stocking-up with honey before 'the off' - for that is another difference between Artificial and Genuine Swarming.

I went on to suggest that if repeated A/S's were proving unsatisfactory, that the beek concerned might want to consider allowing the bees to swarm, but into a swarm arrester/ re-hiver. But as there's precious little info on such devices around, I put together a new thread with some examples, including one of my own efforts (very much a work-in-progress !).

If it's of any interest, the thread is over at:
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=341508

Hope giving that link is ok, it'll save me uploading stuff here which is already 'out there'.

Hope it'll be of some interest.

LJ

[Dark Bee]

It will undoubtedly be of interest to many members here. I have considerable interest myself and look forward to perusing in detail what you have written. It was the Brice swarm trap that was the source of interest here - have you seen one?

[The Drone Ranger]

Very good article Little_John interesting theory as well
There's a lot of thought and woodwork skill gone into your design
Thanks for the link :)

[Dark Bee]

I have now had the pleasure of reading your post to which you linked. Heuvel, it is likely he identified an essential component of any swarm arresting device when he decided to separate incoming and outgoing "traffic" and devised a means of so doing.
Is there a reason why the QX in your Mk1 is fixed with the bars vertical and not horizontal ?
In what way do you think your design is an improvement on Heuvels ?
In my own very modest and altogether insignificant experiments I used two nuc. boxes ( one above the other) instead of a brood box. It worked and with donations of brood, the nucs built up very well.
Going to have another look your design now, the pollen traps are confusing me, incidentally what is the floor to roof measurement?