Scotsman article today on some work by Dr. Connolly.

[Johnthefarmer]

This should be of interest to all: http://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/honey-bee-survival-rate-better-in-west-of-scotland-1-2807966

The statement that farmers are required to record all pesticide treatments on their land, but nobody seems to collate the information,so it is not available when conducting research, is quite telling.

In my view, no farmers should be allowed to put biocides on their land without a demonstrable need. Sounds draconian, but it's necessary to avoid farmland becoming a sterile green desert.

[Black Comb]

According to the article there are no conclusions as to the specific reasons for the east-west difference.
Possible conclusions prefaced with "it could be".
So, could be all sorts of reasons.

[Johnthefarmer]

According to the article there are no conclusions as to the specific reasons for the east-west difference.
Possible conclusions prefaced with "it could be".
So, could be all sorts of reasons.

True, but the east/west differences are quite stark.

Even though the specific causes remain unidentified, the challenge to bees from intensive agriculture has to be a major suspect.

[greengumbo]

Seems a fairly small scale study for such a grand set of conclusions.
Could they not have got some of the big beefarmers to join in and boost the numbers ?

Will the weather differences between east and west not have made a huge difference to colony survival or did they take this into account ?

I have to say it would be interesting to have a central record of pesticide use though - I am surprised this doesn't exist.

[Johnthefarmer]

We all hate' red tape'.

Sometimes though, it's useful stuff!

[Jon]

Seems a fairly small scale study for such a grand set of conclusions.
Could they not have got some of the big beefarmers to join in and boost the numbers ?

Murray McGregor offered to include his 1000 or so colonies to the survey but they were excluded for some reason.
They are spread all over Scotland, with or without exposure to arable land.
His losses were, from memory between 3%-6%. He wrote about this on beekeeping forum if you can chase up the thread.
I think there was also an article in Scottish Beekeeper magazine.
Murray said there is no difference at all regarding location. He found a better winter survival rate in Poly boxes over wooden boxes.

[Johnthefarmer]

So, your point is,Jon, that none of the suspected threats to bees from intensive farming practices in the east of scotland are valid? (is valid?}

[gavin]

Given the very large statistically significant associations noted by experienced bee scientists elsewhere in the refereed scientific literature between colony losses and:

- Varroa mite counts in Oct
- virus levels (vectored by Varroa) in sampled bees
- colony strength

then a study that doesn't record, in any kind of methodical way, these variables then implies that correlation with geography means that pesticides are a likely cause is, pure and simply, poor science.

How good were the Varroa treatments performed by the beekeepers in the East? Were they experienced beekeepers who knew how to get colonies up to strength in a poor season (in the east) or relative beginners who tend to lose colonies overwinter especially in difficult times? What proportion of the 'west' colonies were in Varroa-free areas? How good was the Varroa control in the main responding areas in the west? The mention by Dr Connolly of Fife tends to suggest that there may be a particularly local effect in operation there.

After the first of Dr Connolly's articles in the Scottish Beekeeper on their findings I visited Murray and as a result wrote this, also published in the magazine. Apologies for the rotated PDF. Go to 'View', and rotate counter-clockwise. The first item is a letter written by Dr Stephen Palmer, the second is the article discussing the significance of east-west data.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/misc/september2012scottishbeekeeper.pdf

A colleague tells me that the data collected on farm pesticide use is held and is available for bona fide researchers. There should have been no problem with Dr Connolly accessing it, but instead he complains to the Parliamentary Environmental Audit Committee and the Scotsman that it isn't even gathered. Why?

Gavin

[Johnthefarmer]

A colleague tells me that the data collected on farm pesticide use is held and is available for bona fide researchers. There should have been no problem with Dr Connolly accessing it, but instead he complains to the Parliamentary Environmental Audit Committee and the Scotsman that it isn't even gathered. Why?

Gavin

That's an interesting divergence of opinion between you and your old friend, Dr. Connolly.

He says the information is not available,you say it is.

There's only one way to settle this.....(TV BURP!)

[chris]

"But they criticised the way data on pesticide use is, or rather is not, gathered, saying the current system makes it impossible to properly determine what is causing honey bees to die."

So the rest is mere speculation??

[gavin]

He should have samples from apiaries for pesticide analysis but we've had no comments on that yet.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

[Jon]

"
So the rest is mere speculation??

...on a very small sample set.
If Murray's McGregor's colonies had been included there would have been no East West difference to report and the average losses everywhere would have been brought down.
If nothing else it suggests that Murray McGregor knows how to manage his bees better than the average hobby beekeeper.

[Johnthefarmer]

...on a very small sample set.
If Murray's McGregor's colonies had been included there would have been no East West difference to report and the average losses everywhere would have been brought down.
If nothing else it suggests that Murray McGregor knows how to manage his bees better than the average hobby beekeeper.

So again it's Murray versus EFSA.

Only one way to settle this.....ha ha..

[drumgerry]

As a resident of North East Scotland I would say that colony losses are in the main being experienced by new beekeepers of which there are many. Usually during their first winter. Usually down to improper feeding and lack of varroa treatment. Usually they have one colony equalling 100% loss. All of the experienced beekeepers I know just aren't experiencing the "devastating" losses so beloved by the media, and funding applications. Hey - there's money to be made in the fiction that "the bees are all dying".

During the last two winters (touch wood) I haven't lost a single colony.

[Trog]

Here in the west I've lost two so far this winter ... and I know exactly why I lost each one. No mystery, nor, actually, was it poor beekeeping.

[greengumbo]

As a resident of North East Scotland I would say that colony losses are in the main being experienced by new beekeepers of which there are many. Usually during their first winter. Usually down to improper feeding and lack of varroa treatment. Usually they have one colony equalling 100% loss. All of the experienced beekeepers I know just aren't experiencing the "devastating" losses so beloved by the media, and funding applications. Hey - there's money to be made in the fiction that "the bees are all dying".

During the last two winters (touch wood) I haven't lost a single colony.

I fit that demographic perfectly ! New beek, 1 colony, 1st winter, 1 loss - although it was down to 2 successive drone layers and then not enough winter bees I think.

[Jon]

Losses are going to be higher than usual in NI this winter including among the more experienced beekeepers.
For some reason the nucs have overwintered very poorly and a lot have been lost.
We don't have much oil seed rape sown in NI although I do have a couple of fields near my main site at the allotment most years.
There is a farmer about 15 miles away who grows well over 100 acres every year and I know a couple of beekeepers who bring bees to his fields every year in April.

It will be very interesting to see the results of pesticide analysis in bee samples from the Scottish apiaries.
This type of work, much bigger studies in fact, has been done many times already in different jurisdictions and the samples typically indicate a great number of pesticides, fungicides and miticides. Neonicotinoids sometimes show up but they are not prevalent and often the main products found are the varroa treatments used by the beekeeper. The Mullen et al study (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009754) in the US is a good example.

The strangest thing is that the bees build up really well in April when they must have maximum exposure, they fill a couple of supers and are then supposed to die 8 or 9 months later from miniscule amounts in the stored pollen and nectar.
Bear in mind that bees only live about 6 weeks so the entire colony bar the queen will have turned over several times before the winter so the only possible route of exposure is via something stored in the hive.
This should be the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate by testing bees in winter for neonicotinoid residues so if this is happening why has noone produced the evidence?
That part of the argument does not stack up for me.

At this point, the campaigners claim that it must be there but it cannot be detected but the tests are incredibly sensitive.

[Jon]

Yes I have heard it and we both know the author! Total stream of consciousness waffle. No evidence. No supporting studies, just make it up as you go along stuff.



Admin note: as Jon's post now seems nonsensical, I should point out that JTF posted before this the hypothesis that neonics interfere with brain function and hence the bees' perception of daylength. This would then affect the production of winter bees. John (the farmers) himself clearly realised that it wasn't a sensible hypothesis and withdrew the post. Just explaining ....

[Johnthefarmer]

at of
Losses are going to be higher than usual in NI this winter including among the more experienced beekeepers.
For some reason the nucs have overwintered very poorly and a lot have been lost.
We don't have much oil seed rape sown in NI although I do have a couple of fields near my main site at the allotment most years.
There is a farmer about 15 miles away who grows well over 100 acres every year and I know a couple of beekeepers who bring bees to his fields every year in April.

It will be very interesting to see the results of pesticide analysis in bee samples from the Scottish apiaries.
This type of work, much bigger studies in fact, has been done many times already in different jurisdictions and the samples typically indicate a great number of pesticides, fungicides and miticides. Neonicotinoids sometimes show up but they are not prevalent and often the main products found are the varroa treatments used by the beekeeper. The Mullen et al study (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009754) in the US is a good example.

The strangest thing is that the bees build up really well in April when they must have maximum exposure, they fill a couple of supers and are then supposed to die 8 or 9 months later from miniscule amounts in the stored pollen and nectar.
Bear in mind that bees only live about 6 weeks so the entire colony bar the queen will have turned over several times before the winter so the only possible route of exposure is via something stored in the hive.
This should be the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate by testing bees in winter for neonicotinoid residues so if this is happening why has noone produced the evidence?
That part of the argument does not stack up for me.

At this point, the campaigners claim that it must be there but it cannot be detected but the tests are incredibly sensitive.

Hi,Jon,

Yes, it may seem perplexing. But there is maybe a way of seeing through the complexities....

First off, I must confess to having little personal knowledge of bee stuff. But I do farm and I have an excellent tutor..

We should all know that even the tiniest levels,at crucial stages of development,of neurotoxins can seriously bugger up foetal/larval development.

So, not only are workers messed about with their satnav, the colony immunity defence to everything is impaired,their grooming off of bugs wrecked, but the offsping are born spoiled.

Looks to me as if the original claims by Bayer re' Premise plus Nature 'are probably correct ,not just for Termites!

THEY CHOSE NOT TO CHECK WHETHER BEES WERE SIMILARLY AFFECTED!
How bad is that?

[Jon]

John, the termite treatment you refer to involved pumping massive quantities of the stuff into the ground around the building being treated. There is no comparison at all with the minute ppb quantities found in pollen and nectar.
There are multiple factors involved in colony mortality and trying to shoehorn every fatality into the neonic arena is frankly bonkers.
I could list at least half a dozen factors which are more likely to be in play this winter.
Colonies have died in winter before the 1990s when neonics were but a twinkle in the eye of Bayer.
There are historical records of mass bee die offs and dwindle which go back to the mid 19th century about 100 years before the modern pesticide driven fertilizer fueled modern agricultural era started.
Google 'isle of wight disease' and there are many similar historical references as well.

[Johnthefarmer]

The big point Bayer made about their termite treatment,despite what you call 'massive quantities pumped in' is that,actually the main kill-off was from secondary pathogens,as you well know!

[Jon]

Yes but they were pumping it into the ground in massive quantities to get the long term efficiency.
Bees do well on oil seed rape the world over.
That is what beekeepers report and that is why the commercial guys seek out OSR sites to move their bees to.
These guys are not stupid and they have influence.
If they were losing bees to some chemical on oil seed rape they would be first in line calling for a ban.


I could list at least half a dozen factors which are more likely to be in play this winter.

I'll give you an example. I checked the association apiary site this afternoon and one of the nucs was dead with the comb chewed to blazes by a mouse. This was a decent nuc 2 weeks ago. Maybe the rodent was supercharged through consuming grain treated with Imidacloprid!

[Johnthefarmer]

Yes but they were pumping it into the ground in massive quantities to get the long term efficiency.
Bees do well on oil seed rape the world over.
That is what beekeepers report and that is why the commercial guys seek out OSR sites to move their bees to.
These guys are not stupid and they have influence.
If they were losing bees to some chemical on oil seed rape they would be first in line calling for a ban.

So that's your last line of defence. Winter neonic-treated OSR shows no immediate harm, in Scotland/N.I.

I hope you're right about that.

Really, we should not be getting rid of insects without a bloody good reason.

[Jon]

Look John, I actually share your concerns about the amount of pesticides swishing about in the environment and I do get your oft made point about pre-treatment which may not even be necessary, but I think the current campaign/obsession around neonicotinoid pesticides is a complete red herring. There is far worse stuff out there which is still in widespread use. Endosulfans and Organophosphates for example. Sub lethal effects and synergistic effects are not exclusively confined to neonicotinoids. Don't lose the big picture.

[Johnthefarmer]

Look John, I actually share your concerns about the amount of pesticides swishing about in the environment and I do get your oft made point about pre-treatment which may not even be necessary, but I think the current campaign/obsession around neonicotinoid pesticides is a complete red herring. There is far worse stuff out there which is still in widespread use. Endosulfans and Organophosphates for example. Sub lethal effects and synergistic effects are not exclusively confined to neonicotinoids. Don't lose the big picture.


I have the big picture in mind.

I think it's what I've been doing for years.

What you're agenda is ,is a bit of a mystery,

You tell us your own gardening is organic,you support sustainable charities in central america.

Why on earth you defend Bayer et al with their bloody wicked killer drugs makes me question your integrity, or gullibility.

You seem to justify your stance as being dispassionate, scientific etc but you always come down on supporting an increasingly dodgy position.

[Jon]

I have put the last 20 years of my life into developing our project in Mexico so I don't need any lectures from the bonkers conspiracy theorists who may question my integrity with their talk of Masons, secret logos and all the rest of it.
There is no agenda. That is yet another juvenile conspiracy theory.
I don't defend Bayer, Syngenta or their ilk. Like I said, I think the neonic ban campaign is a red herring with regard to bee health. There is worse stuff out there. I am the least gullible person you might ever meet.
Gullible to me is a child like belief in chem trails, ley lines, secret societies, hidden symbols in logos, sleepers working their way up beekeeper organizations, need I go on!

[Johnthefarmer]

I have put the last 20 years of my life into developing our project in Mexico so I don't need any lectures from the bonkers conspiracy theorists who may question my integrity with their talk of Masons, secret logos and all the rest of it.
There is no agenda. That is yet another juvenile conspiracy theory.
I don't defend Bayer, Syngenta or their ilk. Like I said, I think the neonic ban campaign is a red herring with regard to bee health. There is worse stuff out there. I am the least gullible person you might ever meet.
Gullible to me is a child like belief in chem trails, ley lines, secret societies, hidden symbols in logos, sleepers working their way up beekeeper organizations, need I go on!

No, you don't need to go on.

Sustainable,healthy food production doesn't, in the long term, benefit from these stop-gap chemical fixes for systems that ignore millions of years of building ecosystem balance.

Yes, if us farmers want a crop that has a reasonable yield, we have to tip things in our favour.

But the hubris that we can dispense with nature and still prosper is a bad mistake.....


(My tally is 40 years, FWIW)

[Jon]

Right John - so ditch the obsession with neonicotinoid pesticides and look at the best way to reduce overall pesticide usage in a market realistic way especially in the main food producing areas of the world such as parts of the US.
My personal philosophy is that it is best for everyone to start to do the best they can within their own situation. I appreciate that you do that yourself but you can't impose your will on other people. I always urge people to look at themselves first before ranting about the perceived evils in the world. I don't have 160 acres like you have. I have a suburban garden 100 foot long and an allotment 3 miles from where I live. My garden is totally given over to fruit trees and fruit bushes and has not seen a chemical treatment since we moved here 13 years ago. I get a decent crop most years.

I make my own wine, I grow a lot of my own food, I don't drive or own a car, I started up a bee breeding group which takes up maybe 15 -20 hours a week of my time unpaid all summer, my day job is looking for funding and providing support to a project for young people with a learning disability in Mexico. Like I said, that has been a 20 year commitment. Sometimes I get sick to the back teeth of the innuendo and slurs put about by certain people, many of whom appear to be not the full shilling if you pardon the pun. People who live in a fantasy world of intrigue and imaginary masonic handshakes. You have no idea how far off the mark you are with all this bull about being an apologist for Bayer.

[Johnthefarmer]

Good Answer.

But, yes ,perhaps I do have a bit of an obsession with neonicotinoids.

They are now,and increasingly, the most widely used pesticides in the world. They are marketed as being 'bee friendly',' mammal friendly' , 'non-persistent' etc. and have been sponsored by many compromised agencies.

All their claims are unravelling,but they still have their defenders.

Their effects on non-target species are sufficiently subtle,but nonetheless deadly, that they can go uncorrelated by many observers.


P.S.
Sometimes two steps and a couple of months is enough to confuse all but the smartypants.You have to be bloody sharp to contend with global companies. Here's to the smartypants! I do not claim to be one myself, but I know one or two.....

[gavin]

What you're agenda is ,is a bit of a mystery,

You tell us your own gardening is organic,you support sustainable charities in central america.

Why on earth you defend Bayer et al with their bloody wicked killer drugs makes me question your integrity, or gullibility.

You seem to justify your stance as being dispassionate, scientific etc but you always come down on supporting an increasingly dodgy position.

After a short discussion behind the scenes, we've decided to end John's contributions to this forum. We've been too tolerant of the bad-mouthing of others and it is time to get back to bee and beekeeping discussions.

Gavin (on behalf of the SBAi Team)

[drumgerry]

That's the problem with the neonic-obsessives. You disagree with them and they remain polite and civil for an exchange or two but sooner or later the personal attacks start coming.

Sad to see someone banned but necessary in my opinion to stop the forum being flooded at every opportunity with the man's agenda. Strangely I don't seem to recall him participating much in discussions about.....oh what's that subject I'm trying to think of....that's right BEEKEEPING!

[wee willy]

Straight into the beekeeping forum! None of the corners knocked off LOL :D
WW


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[Ruary]

It would take more than a mere banning to knock corners off him. I agree that the comments were becoming far too personal and banning should have taken place.

[Jon]

How are bees overwintering down your way Ruary?
Up north, we has a really good winter in 2011-2012 but this one looks much worse.

[wee willy]

Deferring social circles have differing degrees of acceptable behaviour !
Abrasiveness is the norm in my world! Having said that ,when contributing to a more cosmopolitan circle such as this forum and it having a behaviour code then none compliance after repeated warnings can only have one conclusion?
WW


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[Ruary]

How are bees overwintering down your way Ruary?
not good I am hearing about several people who have lost all their (single or pair) hives. Queen failure or starvation have both come into play.

[Jon]

A hypothetical east west difference but no North South split then. (he said, desperately trying to stay on topic.)
the nucs have been very hard hit. Anything below strength in the Autumn has had little chance this winter.
It could be the queens, ie poor mating, as the nucs usually have new queens in them but I think it is more likely to be the colony size and lack of pollen in autumn.
The ivy flowered nearly a month late up north and it was too cold for the bees to fly when it was available.
Normally my bees would collect vast quantities of ivy pollen and rear brood on it even into November. Didn't happen this year and they were broodless very early.
The thing about these proposed geographic differences is that you would need statistics over quite a few winters to see if the data you are collecting is a genuine trend.

[greengumbo]

Exactly Jon.....and you would need to take account of a vast number of variables. It could be done but it is likely a very messy and limited data set. It would be really nice to see some statistical ecologists work alongside the bee scientists on these complex issues. I would imagine that they would take a glance at the current analysis and laugh heartily. Some high powered stats needed to tease out the correlation and causations !!! BUT it is doable, if probably not from this data.

[Black Comb]

A few years ago I heard a talk by Giles Budge of NBU. This was at the beginning of "honeybees are declining era" and one year (2004 or 05 I think) losses were 25 - 30%. They have figures going back to 2nd WW and he put them on the screen. I asked him what was different now as some years in the 1970's and 1980's were showing similar losses. Aah, you can't compare because we changed the way we collate the figures around 1990.
There's a lot of motivation to keep the "bees under threat" idea topical, not least scientific research grants.

[Jon]

There's a lot of motivation to keep the "bees under threat" idea topical, not least scientific research grants.

I know. It is very difficult to get year on year figures for UK colony numbers from either the NBU or the bbka.
I asked about this on the bbka website (http://www.bbka.org.uk/members/forum.php?t=5988&pg=0#post57333) a few months ago.

It is pretty clear that numbers have increased in the past 4 or 5 years although they have decreased from the WW2 era.

[wee willy]

Little bird tells me that there were quite a few phantom hives during WW2, an extra sugar ration being the inducement to exaggerate numbers a tad :D
VM


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[Calum]

BIP (Bloginpeace) JTF

I'm only suprised
it took so long.

I have no problem with his agenda, but his methods of argumentation and smearing of people with differing arguments was beyond what you would put up with in a face to face discussion, so why should it be allowed in a forum.