Nosema Cerana in Scotland

[greengumbo]

http://planetearth.nerc.ac.uk/news/story.aspx?id=1367&cookieConsent=A

Interesting. About 77% of hives sampled had N.cerana.

[Jon]

N ceranae was detected in NI about 2 years ago.
I wonder did the survey distinguish N Apis from N Ceranae through DNA testing or was this microscope work.
They are notoriously difficult to tell apart under the microscope.

Ruary will likely chip in!

[greengumbo]

Hi Jon - just read the full paper and they did a combination of microscopy and species specific PCR. They also sequenced a sample of the N.ceranae to confirm.

Nice wee study.

[Jimbo]

I wonder what the % found were in the East of Scotland compared to the West. My sample came back as negative for any Nosema. Same for a few of our Association members. In the West we don't have large importation or movement of colonies where as the East has more commercial beekeeping so more chance of colony movement. Which is another possible explanation for the difference in colony loses from West to East and may not be due to pesticides. There has been a suggestion that bees affected with high Nosema loads and treated with Oxalic acid also tend not to make it through the winter.

[Jon]

Thanks GG. Found the link (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00436-012-3195-0) to the paper.


There has been a suggestion that bees affected with high Nosema loads and treated with Oxalic acid also tend not to make it through the winter.

The Oxalic seems to hasten their demise according to some and I have certainly lost a few myself within a couple of weeks of Oxalic treatment but these were very small anyway and had little or no chance.
There seems to be a big problem locally with much smaller than normal winter clusters. I suspect nosema may have something to do with that and we had N Ceranae confirmed here 2 years ago.

[gavin]

G84 had three samples - two negative and one PCR-positive but without spores seen microscopically. Might that be yours Jimbo?

It seems surprising that Mull (supposedly isolated from imported bees since Varroa spread across the west) has PCR positive samples. OK, there was an importation in the SW of the island but that was isolated and died out. Pity that Colonsay doesn't seem to be represented as it is probably more certainly isolated in terms of live bees.

[Jimbo]

Nope! I'm clean and have the letter to prove it! but I know who had the PCR positive sample and it was from an area to where bees where brought into the area a few years ago

[gavin]

Interesting. I wonder if our Mull members can see a similar pattern.

[Ruary]

Nope! I'm clean and have the letter to prove it! but I know who had the PCR positive sample and it was from an area to where bees where brought into the area a few years ago
I do winder about the sensitivity of a PCR screening, I had cause to send a sample of Nosema apis to USA, and the first sample which was dried sludge on a slide glass showed 'no dna'. A second sample which was similarly packed with dries spoes gave a similar result, but was then run through PCR which showed that the sample was apis and not cerana. How many bees were taken in the screening, there would need to be enough to be sure that one infected bee was in the sample?

[Ruary]

They are notoriously difficult to tell apart under the microscope.

Ruary will likely chip in!
Well here goes, Fries when he first described cerana stated that it required electron microscope to see the difference, but this has now been altered and with experience it is possible most times to differentiate under optical microscopy. The first case in Ireland was seen by Pat Maloney of Teagasc who thought the spores 'looked different' and has the sample sent for PCR analysis.
No other sample from the South has, to my knowlege, been sent for PCR confirmation.
Ruary

[Jon]

This was the press release from Newforge (http://www.afbini.gov.uk/index/news/news-releases/news-releases-archive-2010.htm?newsid=17320) when first detection was made in NI

Where was Pat Maloney's sample tested?

[Ruary]

UK as far as I know, he had to get special sanction for the test to be done.

[The Drone Ranger]

Is nosema treatable without fumigillin ?

I thought some thymol in winter syrup was supposed effective ?

[Black Comb]

Fumigillin was banned end of 2011

[Jon]

Is nosema treatable without fumigillin ?

I thought some thymol in winter syrup was supposed effective ?

According to Yucel (http://scialert.net/abstract/?doi=pjbs.2005.1142.1145) the Thymol is even more effective than fumidil B.

Mervyn Eddie, one of the speakers at the UBKA conference a fortnight ago did a presentation on this.

[The Drone Ranger]

Fumigillin was banned end of 2011

I know, wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMDN7r1SfbY
Americans still use it

I'm glad the thymol works Jon
I have a little recipe where by adding lecithin granules you get an emulsion that mixes better with the sugar syrup

[Jon]

I use lechithin as well. We must both be using Pete-L's recipe.

[The Drone Ranger]

Nicked from the web but I can't find it on this hard drive too much stuff not with descriptive file names
I'm sure it will be the same one by the same person though
I made up much more than I needed but I think it keeps ok for years

[Jon]

It's posted on beekeepingforum where Pete-L is a moderator (Hivemaker)

[The Drone Ranger]

It might be more popular soon then as a treatment. Maybe a link?
I think Beekeeping forum is right google reports I have visited 5 times last one June 2012 Lol!
Don't you love being tracked everywhere you go

[Jon]

Thymol link (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=49691&postcount=44)

[drumgerry]

I've been using Hivemaker's recipe for a few years now (didn't realise Hivemaker and Pete-L were one and the same!). All of my Autumn feed gets a dose and if nothing else it keeps the syrup from fermenting. If there are any positive effects re Nosema I'll happily take those as well!

About the recipe - I was able to source almost pure alcohol in very small quantities through my contacts (I do live in the heart of whisky country after all!) but it's been getting harder and harder to get hold of. Am I right in thinking surgical spirit is ok to use? I know it's high percentage alcohol but doesn't it have added gubbins to stop you drinking it? And if so are the bees ok with it?

[Pete L]

Isopropyl alcohol is better than surgical spirit, can be bought online or from many chemist shops.

[Jon]

speak of the devil!

[The Drone Ranger]

Isopropyl alcohol is better than surgical spirit, can be bought online or from many chemist shops.

Pete L

Thanks for that recipe
It did cause some friction in the kitchen with the missus
I don't smell thymol as much I think I'm used to it
On the other hand once it's made its just lovely milk like stuff which you could put on your cornflakes (if you were a bee)

[Dark Bee]

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;16766]Pete L................................................. ....

I don't smell thymol as much I think I'm used to it .................................................. .......


Mercifully the olafactory organs get fatigued quickly when they are overloaded. :confused:

I shall be having a stab too at this receipe - so my thanks also to Mr Pete.

P.S. I will experiment with a different type of alcohol - just bought an 18' length of 3/4" copper pipe.

[The Drone Ranger]

just bought an 18' length of 3/4" copper pipe. Still gets to you sometimes then Dark Bee
Two peanuts were walking down the street, unfortunately one was assaulted

[Dark Bee]

just bought an 18' length of 3/4" copper pipe. Still gets to you sometimes then Dark Bee
Two peanuts were walking down the street, unfortunately one was assaulted

Nothing offensive was intended to be expressed or implied, if I have annoyed you then my apologies, it was not what I intended. For the record, the copper pipe mentioned is of the size commonly used to make a worm for the distillation of poteen (spirit). By the time it has been run three times and cut both ends each time - the spirit will be purer than than any commercially available. The end of the worm will also most likely have been dissolved, it is not for nothing the first cupful through, is thrown on the ground as a drink for the fairies - "deoch na seoighe". :)

[The Drone Ranger]

Dark Bee
I guessed it would be something to do with ddrrrinkk!!
I thought it would be a lot thinner than 3/4" pipe
That sound more like something you fill with lead when visiting a noisy neighbour
I note your post ends with the latin phrase "a drink comes before a story"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjGdXoruJCU
check this link
The guy hasn't a clue what the fairies like he's still using up last years honey crop

[Jon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvaEJzoaYZk

[wee willy]

Where'd you get 3/4" pipe?
15 m/m is the available size!
Micro bore would be more appropriate and easy to loop nudge nudge wink wink! :D
VM


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[The Drone Ranger]

Jon what are you and Dark Bee drinking over there
IPA means India Pale Ale not Isopropyl alcohol

[Jon]

The only alcohol I make is apple wine and I don't own any equipment for concentrating it any further.
You just need to fill your glass more often.

[Dark Bee]

Wee Willy,
You are obviously a man with an enquiring mind, 22mm pipe is the new 3/4". You will need to keep a bag of soft sand by the fire for a while - until it is thoroughly dry. Flatten one end of the pipe and fold it over, with the pipe vertical fill it with the sand (upstairs window / quarry ). Keep tapping all the while to pack it tightly and when full close the top end. Take it to the stump of a telegraph pole and wind away, cut off both ends and the sand will run out. That's the worm made, poke the lower end through a hole near the bottom of a barrel and there's the cooler. The tinkers will make you a still head and any clean barrel will do as a still, seal all the joints with dough and you are in business. I've just remembered Kate Atchley is a minister of religion - she'll nae speak to me again, I should never have left the straight and narrow.

[Jon]

At least you haven't given any ammunition to those who erroneously elect to stereotype the Irish as a nation of drinkers!

[Dark Bee]

Dark Bee
I guessed it would be something to do with ddrrrinkk!!
I thought it would be a lot thinner than 3/4" pipe
That sound more like something you fill with lead when visiting a noisy neighbour
I note your post ends with the latin phrase "a drink comes before a story"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjGdXoruJCU
check this link
The guy hasn't a clue what the fairies like he's still using up last years honey crop



Definitely, after all I knew the original "Jack" now long dead, but a native of Listowel Co. Kerry.
22mm then if you prefer the metric, just don't go for a ten hour day or a ten day week.
I don't have any neighbours now noisy or otherwise, not since I got a set of bagpipes and began practising.
Latin phrase????? I hoped it was Gaelic for " the fairie's drink" - we are a bit touchy about latin east of the Boyne and Barrow!

[The Drone Ranger]

Damn that google translation service it's let me down again.
Drink is the only word in the whole sentence it got right.

One of my neighbours practices bagpipes in his garden sometimes,
He is about half a mile away (out of range of the shotgun) and it's still clear as a bell
Goodness knows what the guy who lives next door to him thinks.

[wee willy]

Wee Willy,
You are obviously a man with an enquiring mind, 22mm pipe is the new 3/4". You will need to keep a bag of soft sand by the fire for a while - until it is thoroughly dry. Flatten one end of the pipe and fold it over, with the pipe vertical fill it with the sand (upstairs window / quarry ). Keep tapping all the while to pack it tightly and when full close the top end. Take it to the stump of a telegraph pole and wind away, cut off both ends and the sand will run out. That's the worm made, poke the lower end through a hole near the bottom of a barrel and there's the cooler. The tinkers will make you a still head and any clean barrel will do as a still, seal all the joints with dough and you are in business. I've just remembered Kate Atchley is a minister of religion - she'll nae speak to me again, I should never have left the straight and narrow.

My dodgy memory :) 15mil is the new 1/2" of course ,
Cero bend is a good medium for use maintaining a pipes circular form . It can be melted over a pan of hot water .
It was used with copper and aluminium pipe whilst the sand job was reserved for steel pipe :)WW


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[The Drone Ranger]

Hi wee willy
Hope the pipe bending expertise isn't a sign of a misspent youth.:)

On the nosema sampling thing I mostly hear of just smashing up bee guts and adding fluid then looking for spores in a slide and graticule setup
The method I was shown though a few years ago involved drying the sample by heating the slide and staining to show up the spores
what do you guys think is the best method

[Dark Bee]

At least you haven't given any ammunition to those who erroneously elect to stereotype the Irish as a nation of drinkers!

Of course not, just practising being a Scotsman. When I visit they can't expect me to bring a bottle if I've told how to make their own, can they?
Personally, I have never had a drink in my life - knowing Jack put me right off the thought!!!

[Ruary]

On the nosema sampling thing I mostly hear of just smashing up bee guts and adding fluid then looking for spores in a slide and graticule setup
The method I was shown though a few years ago involved drying the sample by heating the slide and staining to show up the spores
what do you guys think is the best method

Depends on whether you want to make a permament slide or not. Nosema spores show up clearly with just plain water, show up better with negative stain and with either of those there is no need to dry and stain the spores.

If you want to check viability the Giemsa stain will do that.

According to the COLOSS BEE BOOK ( available from IBRA web ste and open access) infection level is best determined by either average spores/ bee, or by percentage of infected bees.
Personally I have never bothered to dry and stain the spores. I have made slides with negative stained material using glycerine jelly as mountant which avoids the need for total dehydration.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks Ruary

I'll web search that Coloss Book

Randy Oliver et.al. all seem to use the Hymocytometer (spelling please) and liquid
The SASA staff at our training day used stain and drying method and graticule

[Ruary]

I'll web search that Coloss Book
The COLOSS book is being published in 3 volumes, the various chapters are first published in part form by IBRA, before each volume is completed.


Randy Oliver et.al. all seem to use the Haemocytometer (spelling please) and liquid
The SASA staff at our training day used stain and drying method and graticule This seems to be adding extra work and there might be difficulty in obtaining a graticule that coresponds to standard. Variables that immediately spring to mind
1 number of bees in sample
2 volume of water in which they are crushed
3 size of drop of water placed on slide
4 field of view of microscope etc.
5 graticule markings
The use of a haemocytometer covers most of these. Randy has (in the interest of speed and convenience) gone for two methods.
!/2 ml water/per bee and uses a 'standard' twizzle stick to provide ad rop of water of constant size. This has been correlated with the use of a haemocytometer and provides reasonably accurate regression line.
The other method for IPM uses sequential testing where 10 bee abdomens are individually examined for nosema.