Sterilising Combs

[EmsE]

When i began bee keeping, i didn't expect my medicine cupboard to expand to include honey bee medicines. Bearing in mind I normally have antihistamines, pain killers and my boys epipen, the bees stuff is already taking up more space than mine and the kids together.:rolleyes:

I haven't managed to get any acetic acid and don't have Formic either but was wondering if oxalic acid could be used in solution (at a stronger concentration than that used for the trickle method) to sterilise brood combs.

I am hoping Santa bring me an Easi-steam from thornes for Christmas, but in case he doesn't, (and in case anyone else needs to know) I thought I'd ask.

[gavin]

I wouldn't bother trying oxalic. It isn't volatile and so you would need to spray it on. The bees would have to lick it off when they use the comb. That may not do them much good, and it could contaminate honey crops. Acetic and formic will more or less disappear if you allow the combs to air before you use them, and you can treat using an absorbant cloth laid on the top bars in a box subsequently sealed in a bin bag.

I use acetic when I have a batch of used comb I'd like to re-use, but then I more often just replace with new these days. As I have EFB and AFB around me, such precautions seem worthwhile. Particularly so when I'm giving away old comb to beginers trying bait boxes. Probably still worth sterilising comb in Kilbarchan. You could have Nosema and viruses, although they are less persistent than the foulbroods.

Thornes seem to sell acetic for collection: http://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=5311

Not one for the medicine cabinet (or indeed any area children could access) especially with large volumes.

G.

[EmsE]

Thanks Gavin,

Always wondered why oxalic was never mentioned for this purpose but it makes sense. Whenever I've been to Thornes in the past I've not seen it- I'll remember to ask next time.

No child can reach my medicine cabinet- even I struggle.

[Mellifera Crofter]

...I haven't managed to get any acetic acid ...

I got acetic acid from ReAgent (http://www.reagent.co.uk/acetic-acid-80-w-w)by post.

Kitta

[Jon]

Acetic acid 80% is a strong acid which needs to be handled carefully as it could cause serious burns.
Oxalic acid at 5% or whatever when trickled is unlikely to be much of a danger although you would not want to get it in your eyes.
Acetic is the best way to clean comb and as far as I know it gets rid of almost everything except AFB spores.
I treat any spare comb with acetic acid fumes for a week and I also clean all my apideas and apidea frames with it.

[gavin]

.... it gets rid of almost everything except AFB spores...

Quite right with your gentle correction. Acetic fumigation when you don't have visible, active disease might help knock down some of the bacteria that may be around when you are in a foulbrood area - but don't expect it to do wonders for AFB. Whether it reduces the risk of an AFB outbreak from bubbling up at all is something I don't know.

Any visible sign of either disease and the frames are gone, either through shook swarming for mild EFB cases (under the watchful eye of a bee inspector) or destruction for AFB (ditto).

[Jon]

Oops, wasn't intentionally correcting you Gav. I know my place!
I have a vague memory of this discussion taking place a few years ago on the bbka site and it might have been Ruary Rudd who pointed out that acetic would sort out EFB but not AFB spores. It is definitely very efficient at getting rid of nosema spores.
I probably should recycle frames more often than I do but I tend to fumigate and reuse them.
AFB is rare here and I have never heard of a case of EFB in N Ireland although there have been a few notorious incidents such as the case Meg Seymour detected in the demonstration hives at Gormanston a couple of years ago.

[gavin]

Absolutely no problem with being steered in the right direction sometimes - sometime we all need it!

[Bridget]

Ok going back to topic - how long would you use comb before you steamed it off the frames or fumigated it? Considering how long it takes for the bees to draw the comb I thought you re-used it to reduce the time a following year. that's why I extracted my honey from the combs and then gave the empty sticky combs back to the bees to clean up. Just laid them on the QE - they did a great job. Then wrapped them in cling film and stored in a plastic box with lid till the supers go on next year. Was this right? Should they be fumigated?


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[Bridget]

Ok sorry you were talking about brood combs but I would still like to know how and when this should be done.


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[Jon]

Put the combs in a sealed container such as a plastic storage box with a tight fitting lid.
Place a container with about 75ml of acetic acid on top.
The fumes are heavier than air and will fill the plastic storage box.
leave for at least a week.
You are supposed to air the frames for a day before use but I have put frames straight into a colony on occasion without any negative reaction. They smell like vinegar.

You can also do it by making a stack of brood boxes and putting the acetic acid at the top inside an eke.
They need to be well sealed or inside a large plastic binbag.

[gavin]

Hi Bridget

Yes, super comb I wouldn't fumigate - unless I had an active EFB outbreak, then I might do it. Brood combs? Maybe a third each year, trying to end the year with the dirtier combs towards the outside of the brood box and so able to be reclaimed before the colony builds up again. Or a whole box once every 3 years or so after doing a Bailey comb change.

I often destroy the frames (nice wee bonfire) but perhaps I should recover the wax instead in a melter. If the comb is in good condition I will sterilise then use it again for bait boxes or to help nucs build up. Before sterilising the empty brood frames I pick off any sealed cells remaining on the comb. Then they go in a brood box, get a kitchen sponge with ~50ml of acetic acid (80%) placed on the top bars, the the whole thing goes into a bin bag (tied or otherwise sealed) to sit in the sun.

[Black Comb]

I see varying amounts recommended per box. Jon uses 75ml, Gavin 50ml.
Nub leaflet recommends 150ml per box.
BTW, NBU downloads are free and a very good source of disease information.

[Jon]

I find it hasn't even all evaporated after a couple of weeks so I reckon the lower quantities are ok.

[gavin]

I see varying amounts recommended per box. Jon uses 75ml, Gavin 50ml.
Nub leaflet recommends 150ml per box.
BTW, NBU downloads are free and a very good source of disease information.

Gavin should have kept his mouth shut/fingers still. He can't remember what he uses but has to go and look it up every time.

[Jon]

It also depends on the size of the box, how well sealed it is and the rate of evaporation.
Some of the recommendations refer to a stack of several brood boxes.
The plastic box I am using at the moment has a similar capacity to a brood box.

[The Drone Ranger]

Acetic is a menace for eating frame nails etc. I have read that just 1/2 hour or so is long enough
If it's just for nosema spores on brood frames apparently UV light is enough so perhaps one of the ones sold for fish tanks might be adapted

[Jon]

The recommendation is that frames are fumigated with 80% acetic for 8-10 days.
I think the nosema spores are very susceptible so maybe they are killed off quite quickly as opposed to any of the other stuff.
Freezing for 48 hours is another way to kill nosema spores.

The acetic acid does oxidise any exposed metal but not enough to make things fall apart.
If you have metal frame runners you can cover them with gaffer tape or vaseline.
Same for any nails you are worried about

[gavin]

Acetic is a menace for eating frame nails etc. I have read that just 1/2 hour or so is long enough
If it's just for nosema spores on brood frames apparently UV light is enough so perhaps one of the ones sold for fish tanks might be adapted

The benefits are several. Nosema, chalkbrood, viruses, probably even EFB - low levels, subclinical, largely disposed of. So I would always give them the week OK (the 8-10 days), longer if the sun wasn't out much that week. I've done this a few times and never noticed much effect on frame nails, wires and runners. If the box is dry at the same time I don't think that much happens. Maybe doing it in the warmer weather is wise, choosing that window between the start of spring and the start of the swarming season.

[Jon]

The worst effect I see is where you have a frame only partly drawn out.
The acid fumes oxidise the wire where it is part embedded in the foundation.

I have no idea how effective this is but it is inexpensive and relatively straightforward to treat large numbers of frames by making a stack inside something well sealed such as a large plastic binbag.

At this time of year a lot of beekeepers have spare comb from deadouts or from taking off excess stores so it is a good opportunity to reduce the pathogen load on the comb.
Some commercial beekeepers irradiate comb but I think this is only economic if done on a very large scale.

[The Drone Ranger]

This year I have most all of my unused boxes etc outside in the cold over the winter stacked to look like hives
Do you chaps use the black nails that Thorne's sell all the heads on mine disappeared as black rust
And as you say Jon the exposed frame wires disintegrated
I didn't realise it could kill viruses so that's a plus Gavin
I don't think its much use on chalkbrood from personal experience though
I think it is nosema it can dispose of in a short time right enough

Randy Oliver thinks
"Note: The above study has important implications to beekeepers. What is tells you is that in most of the U.S., winter freezing should be enough to kill most of the spores of N. ceranae! This supports the observation of a number of commercial beekeepers that letting deadout equipment “rest” for a month at cold temperatures resulted in better colonies when restocked in the spring."

He might be wrong but I though "why not"

By the by this is Randy Oliver again but I'm sure other people have said the same about nosema
"In warm weather the fumes from 60% acid will kill spores within a few hours; stronger acid will kill them in minutes!"