Is depth more important than width?

[Bumble]

When all the jobs are finished for the day, beekeepers sometimes talk amongst themselves without referring to books and acquired knowledge about beehive design. Current 'debate' amongst some of my beekeeping friends has been about hive depth. I thought I'd throw it open to wider discussion.

We all use Langstoths, some use Jumbo, others use the ordinary deep brood boxes. One is considering using Dadant deeps only from next year, but this leaves bee space gap in the middle.

Comparing overall size of brood area we worked out that, according to out calculators, removing two frames from a Jumbo would give a similar area to a full standard Lang brood box, but it would be deeper. **

If a single brood frame is removed from the Jumbo, leaving 9 frames, the brood area would be 1620.56 square inches. Taking another frame away, leaving 8, would give a brood area of approximately 1440.5 square inches, which we didn't think was significantly less than the standard Lang brood box, but the brood area would be narrower by two frames, and deeper by a couple of inches.

We know about the debates concerning hive types and preferences, but it crossed our mind that we aren't sure whether the brood box shape is that significant, as long as they have enough space, and, although we know it's common practice to use one-size boxes, does that bee space gap between shallows make any difference to the bees?

** Our back of envelope calculations
10 frames within the normal brood box (foundation 16 3/4" x 8 5/8") give an area of 1444.69 square inches,
10 frames within the Jumbo (foundation 16 3/4" x 10 3/4") give an area of 1800.63 square inches.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... One is considering using Dadant deeps only from next year, but this leaves bee space gap in the middle. ...

Dadant 'deeps' only? Why should that cause a gap problem any more than, say, using a two-brood-box National hive - or did you mean Dadant shallows (Langstroth mediums)? If the latter, from personal experience (mentioned here (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?721-Teaching-beginners-Beehives./page2) in post #13) advise him against it!

As for the shape of a hive, I think a Warré is probably the ideal shape from a bee's point of view (particularly if it only has one set of top bars right at the top of the hive, like this Japanese hive (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Japanese-traditional-beekeeping/195200420560782?sk=app_10339498918)) - but maybe not so ideal for us.

Kitta

[Bumble]

- or did you mean Dadant shallows (Langstroth mediums)?
Yes. There are two depths of supers available for Langstoths, these are the deeper of the two.

The gap? In nature bees don't leave horizontal gaps in the middle of combs. We wondered if it takes a while, even if it's only a day or two, for them to cross that gap to expand the brood area.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Ok, so you meant Dadant 'shallows', which is what I've been using, rather than Dadant 'deeps' (as you said in your first post) where there wouldn't have been a gap problem.

I did not notice any delay in them creating a brood area across the gap. For a while I didn't use a queen excluder and they created a brood area that stretched across four or five boxes. Maybe the fact that they created such a long stretched-out brood area indicates that they prefer longer, rather than wider, frames (as in that Japanese example) - but we all know they're happy to make their nests in whatever hollow shapes they can find.

I did notice that the queen was reluctant to use the bottom box. I also struggled a bit with brace comb between the boxes. Maybe my frames weren't nicely aligned one above the other. I don't really have that problem any more.

My main complaint is the amount of lifting of boxes and consequent squashing of bees. An inspection took ages - but I'm still a bit of a novice (three years). It might not be such a problem for your friend.

Kitta

[Black Comb]

Not sure if I'm on the correct wavelength here but I'll add my tuppence worth.
I run LS jumbos, standards (both single brood) and also a few nats on double brood. I prefer the jumbos and run 9 frames per b box. On the standards I run 10. Both with standard LS supers (all from Thorne's).
The nats are useful for queen rearing and hopefully selling nucs (a plan at the moment)
The queen's usually only layup 7 frames of brood in the jumbos. The whole frame is rarely used. Often they chew a few small holes at the bottom and nearly always there is both a pollen arc and a honey arc at the top of the frame.
The standards usually have 8 or 9 frames do brood, smaller arcs. The nat frames are usually completely laid up.
To my mind the deeper frames of jumbos give a more complete feel to the unit. The supers (5 and 7/8") are heavy enough as they are. Why would a dadant depth super mean there is a bigger gap between super and bb? Both are top bee space.
Another angle is to look at Ian Craigs "The Beekeeping Year) on SBA website. He advocates 8 and 8 for some parts of the year.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... Why would a dadant depth super mean there is a bigger gap between super and bb? Both are top bee space. ...
No - regarding the Dadant supers Bumble and I were talking about a one-size box system made up of only Langstroth mediums (which are also known as Dadant shallows), so the brood area is made up of two or more Langstroth medium (Dadant shallow) boxes (about five boxes in my case). Bumble wondered whether the gap between the boxes in the brood area can be a problem.
Kitta

[Bumble]

To my mind the deeper frames of jumbos give a more complete feel to the unit.

The supers (5 and 7/8") are heavy enough as they are. Why would a dadant depth super mean there is a bigger gap between super and bb? Both are top bee space.

Another angle is to look at Ian Craigs "The Beekeeping Year) on SBA website. He advocates 8 and 8 for some parts of the year.
Interesting that you think a single, larger, box feels better than double brooding the smaller ones. That's what our conversation revolved around, whether the bees also think a single, deeper, box is a better than using shallower, one-size, boxes.

There shouldnt be a wider gap between a pair of Dadant supers, as long as the boxes are made to the right dimensions. The gap should be around a bee space.

I think Ian Craig is referring to Nationals, and Scotland, which tends to be chillier than the wet and windy south.



I did not notice any delay in them creating a brood area across the gap. For a while I didn't use a queen excluder and they created a brood area that stretched across four or five boxes. Maybe the fact that they created such a long stretched-out brood area indicates that they prefer longer, rather than wider, frames (as in that Japanese example) - but we all know they're happy to make their nests in whatever hollow shapes they can find.

I did notice that the queen was reluctant to use the bottom box. I also struggled a bit with brace comb between the boxes. Maybe my frames weren't nicely aligned one above the other. I don't really have that problem any more.

The lowest box could be significantly colder than those higher up, especially with an open mesh floor.

For bees the frame alignment could be quite important.

Having watched the Japanese videos, I noticed that (at 8 minutes in), after dealing with propolis seals they cut through the comb with what looks like a large cheese wire.

[marion.orca]

Strange beekeeping tools they use - cheese wire, a hairdryer and a wallpaper scraper - thank goodness I live in Scotland with my trusty hive tool !