New Queen with a "dimple"

[mikemilespitcairn]

Hi Folks,

Whilst going through a nuc which had undergone supercedure, we satisfied ourselves that the new queen was laying well having seen a good pattern of well spaced eggs on several frames. The old queen had disappeared the week before and there were no eggs visible at the last inspection. We decided to try and find the queen for marking which we did eventually. The experienced beekeeper with us expressed concern, asking if the old queen had a dimple in her thorax. This surprised us as the old queen did have a dimpled thorax but was marked and clipped. Surely the bees hadn't cleaned all the paint off and the old queen was still there but had stopped laying for a week and started again. Once she was in a plunger cage we were able to see that this queen was not clipped so she was the new queen but what of the "dimple". When we saw this in the old queen several months ago when we acquired the colony, we thought this was what happened when queens were repeatedly marked by pen; it was difficult to apply the paint without exerting pressure and pushing down the domed thorax. Apparently not! This was a new queen that had been nowhere near a marking pen. Our only conclusion was that this was a genetic "deformity" that expressed itself in the queens of this stock.

[http://www.sbai.org.uk/images/dimpled_queen_2.jpg

Have any other forum members been aware of similar anomalies passed from mother to daughter. Attached is a picture of the queen in the marking cage, clearly showing the depressed thorax.

Mike

[Jon]

I have never seen that before.
They are very soft just before/after emergence and are easily damaged.

You would need to clip a bit more off the wing.
When we had Megan Seymour, the bee inspector, at our association apiary in May. She saw one clipped like that and reckoned it would be able to fly at least 1/4 mile!
Was the mother of that one a Carnica queen. That type of banding is fairly typical.

[mikemilespitcairn]

They are very soft just before/after emergence and are easily damaged.

The queen had had no disturbance for about 3 days before to 6 days after emergence and was not seen on a 14 day inspection. Her mother had a similar "dimple".


You would need to clip a bit more off the wing.

This pictire was taken before we did the clipping and marking; the wing in the photo was untouched. Our esteemed adinistrator removed about a third of the wing a few minutes later.


Was the mother of that one a Carnica queen. That type of banding is fairly typical.

The stock is from a local hybrid strain but it could have carnica in it. The drones are very dark!:)

[gavin]

Yes, the picture is of the pristine new queen and was pre-clipping.

I showed the pictures to Dan B last night and he didn't know this condition but said that the wing muscles are attached to an internal protrusion at the site of the distortion.

Had a look in Rinderer's book on bee genetics and the chapter by Kenneth Tucker doesn't list this kind of characteristic as a genetic trait.

It seems surprising that she flew and mated despite the deformity. Maybe she'll be superseded too.

The workers look like brown chunky Amm bees.

[Rosie]

I have never seen a new queen with a dimple but I have, in fact, dented a couple while marking them too vigorously. I like to make sure the carapace is painted and not just the hairs otherwise the paint wears off.

My dimpled queens have always gone on to be good queens so it does not seem to have an adverse affect although I have never dented a virgin so don't know if it affects their flying. I wonder if your queen has beed trapped while replacing frames during an inspection.

Steve

[Jon]

I still think that wing has been previously clipped which suggests it is the old queen with the paint worn off.
There might still be a younger model running around.
A bee wing is rounded at the end and that one looks like it has had a straight cut.

1206

I have had several queens lose their mark completely so I don't think it is that unusual.

[mikemilespitcairn]

Hi Jon,

You have got me wondering now but I'm sure the old queen was clipped quite hard, beyond the DrawWing vein intersection points 2,3 & 4.
The old queen was remarked with white nail varnish only 3 weeks ago and was still very prominent the week before we say eggs disappear.
When we have seen marks "fade" in the past therehas always been traces of paint visible.
Time will tell. If the new brood are all drones we will know she is a new queen which has not been able to fly and mate properly!

[gavin]

I have another view of the queen - dimple/dent is out of focus but the wings are clearer.

It is reasonable to imagine that a queen with that deformity where the flight muscles are attached wouldn't be able to manage decent mating flights. If so (if you agree this is the new queen), and given Steve's comments on being able to make such dents, that might point to the one-in-a-million chance squish in the right place during the one visit Mike and co made between the virgin's emergence and the visit on Thursday.

G.

http://www.sbai.org/images/dimpled_queen_1.jpghttp://www.sbai.org.uk/images/dimpled_queen_1.jpg

OK, one in a thousand!

[Jon]

Got me that time with your camera trickery. The wing does look intact in that shot. Bet you photoshopped the tip back on again!

[gavin]

If only my skills went that far. Agree that it has a clipped look about it in that first picture - maybe the tip is angled slightly and the perspective made it look shortened. Always worth taking a few shots, but this time there wasn't one that had everything in focus.

The car sitting outside has a record 13 colonies neatly stacked in the back. Two in full boxes, 10 in Paynes nucs, one in a wooden Smith nuc. As far as I can tell no bees were spilled. It did occur to me that I forgot to nail down the mesh panel in the floor of the Swienty National, so I carried that one particularly carefully. They'll be on their way in the morning (not *too* early, it is a Sunday after all) to christen a site in Glen Clova for the local association. Their late summer holidays. It is surprising what you can pack into an Astra Estate.