Poly hive musings.

[Neils]

Interesting thoughts and I would like to hear more of your thinking on this subject, but perhaps this isn't the right thread. I've no real experience of poly beyond mating nucs but as my post on the home made mating nuc thread earlier this week showed, even in this area I'm looking towards making my own in wood and will be putting ten into winter alongside eight poly versions. They've already proven themselves as suitable for mating the queens (no difference to the poly boxes) in a rather dreary summer so now it's just a case of how they perform over winter and more importantly next Spring.
To break out of the other thread.

I bought two Paynes 14x12 hives this year, one of which I currently have a colony of bees in. I'm pretty sure I posted my initial thoughts on here, with some pics, at the time.

I know there are other suppliers etc etc but I can only give my thoughts on a summer of using Payne's hive.

I didn't do anything to the hive other than put bees in it and that is possibly my first mistake. Since then here are my thoughts:

Payne's supply a clear plastic sheet as a "crown board" on a bottom bee space hive (made by Bayer ironically enough). This is diffult to put in place without trapping or squishing bees on the top bars. I do now use a standard crown board but this means that the roof is very loose. Paynes do supply a cargo strap with each hive but I find a brick works just as well keeping it in place.

as soon as I put bees in it they started to chew the top of the side walls, they've continued to do this pretty much since day one.

Now they've added propolis to the mix taking the frames out tends to bring some of the poly wall with it.

Generally the poly construction isn't as dense as an apidea and it tends to damage easily as a result. I gather you can treat the hives with varnish? to make them a bit more durable.

On the plus side the bees seem to have done pretty well in them, national kit does fit on fine and, as suppliers go Paynes have been pretty good and the rest of their stuff is pretty top notch.

The proof might well be how they do over winter compared to the cedar hives and I know I'm one of the more southerly "Scottish" beekeepers but I can't say I've ever had a problem overwintering in wood hives.

[Jon]

I had a look at one of those Paynes poly hives for the first time yesterday and I did not like it.
1. There are no runners so the frames are stuck down by the entire lug and if you have bees which use a lot of propolis you could easily damage the poly. It took me several minutes to get the first frame out.
2. The box I looked at yesterday also had a home made crown board so users obviously have an issue with the inner cover.
3. Did not notice any chewing of the poly
4. There was a large brood area relative to the number of bees so I guess that is probably the main advantage of poly, faster build up.

[Neils]

Mine did come with metal runners per fitted.

[fatshark]

There's a thread elsewhere on the Paynes polynucs (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?527-Using-the-new-polynucs), with some solutions to the issues raised by Jon. You can easily add runners, converting them to bottom bee space. I use a 2mm perspex crown board. Since the frames are now flush with the rim of the box I simply slide it along gently and the bees go down readily enough. My main issue is with the feeder, which is too narrow and a pain to empty if there are bees in the box (for example, removing fermenting syrup). I've covered the feeder with gaffer tape and use a frame feeder instead.

The entrance on the original Paynes polynucs was rubbish ... I pinned a small correx landing platform underneath to help the girls home.

However, the exact same problem Jon highlights with the frame lugs getting stuck down applies to the Modern Beekeeping poly nationals. These have runners, but they're ridged with a broad contact area for the lugs. I've used one of these boxes for most of this season and it's driven me nuts. To compound the issue:

the box is marginally too narrow meaning the ends of the lugs - if propilised - are a tight squeeze and so don't slide along the runners.

the QE gets stuck to the super above, even after liberal use of vaseline covering the contacting faces of the brood box and super

the box is incompatible with other national equipment - aside from not being able to simply stack boxes up this means you also need dedicated QE's, crown boards, clearer boards etc. I've ended up building a sort of wide 'shim' to allow uniting a wood national (below) with a poly national (above)

the curved corners and overhanging lip of the supers means you have to align the box directly when stacking - combined with the relatively wide interacting faces this can lead to a lot of casualties if the boxes are packed with bees

They are nice and light and the quality of the poly is very high. However, the issues above mean that my two boxes will be being traded for cedar at the end of this season.

I should add that I have a number of Sweinty poly supers and am very pleased with them. These stack well with cedar national boxes and - with the addition of castellated spacers - work well as supers.

[gavin]

Was nodding approvingly at all of that FS (don't have any MB kit myself) until I hit the last line. What?! You've spoiled it all now. That counts as trolling!

[prakel]

as soon as I put bees in it they started to chew the top of the side walls, they've continued to do this pretty much since day one.

Now they've added propolis to the mix taking the frames out tends to bring some of the poly wall with it.

Generally the poly construction isn't as dense as an apidea and it tends to damage easily as a result. I gather you can treat the hives with varnish? to make them a bit more durable.

I can understand the recommendation to varnish the frame rest area of the Swienty national boxes -maintaining the same external dimensions of the standard wooden hive must create a potential failure point in the polystyrene at that location but I'd imagine the need to varnish the entire box would certainly take the shine off any cost savings over bought wood boxes. Also, as I've said elsewhere (it's a bit of a pet hate of mine) I dislike having to modify brand new equipment, I expect it to be fit for purpose.

[Neils]

i agree with you completely. i might be wrong, but untreated i think these poly hives will do well to last 3-4 seasons. I don't think I'd bother to do the entire inside of the hive, but I haven't looked at it in any great detail. It's a shame in some respects I do think that the Payne's hive is otherwise pretty well thought out, not least that it's compatible with standard national kit, but I think there are a couple of design issues that need addressing right now.

[Jon]

My 7 frame correx nucs will last more than 3-4 seasons and you can make about 50 of them for the price of one Paynes polyhive.
Several nucs I made up a month ago with queens from apideas are now up to 5-6 frames of brood even without the extra insulation of a polyhive.

[prakel]

I return to the Mike Palmer quote I used in the original thread -it's not the box, it's what's in the box.

[fatshark]

Was nodding approvingly at all of that FS (don't have any MB kit myself) until I hit the last line. What?! You've spoiled it all now. That counts as trolling!

Eh? Was it the mention of Sweinty or the castellations? The former are justified as I bought a load for about £6 each. Nice and light (particularly this year :() and with handles on four sides. Castellations? I've always used them. I start them off at 11 to a box and work up to 8 or 9 to a box by which time the comb usually can't withstand my over-enthusiastic centrifugation.

Prakel makes a good point. I dislike painting the poly boxes before use - too many nooks and crannies - and it would be good to be able to use them directly. Although I do usually paint my cedar boxse (camouflage) the sides are flat so it takes minutes.

[Neils]

Castellations are good for one thing... :D turning upside down and using as emergency frame runners.

Given the choice between burning evangelical, "natural", beekeepers or castellated spacers at the stake I'll take the latter every time :D

[gavin]

'twas the castellations of course. Swienty equipment is lovely, in the main. A few issues with bottom space boxes (Nationals) and top space feeders and roofs, but it is well-made and well-designed stuff.

Thornes went over to castellated spacers for a year or two as standard with their supers, and I really dislike them. If you can't slide frames along to space them out or to lift one, or squash them up, it is useless in my eyes.

I have a Paynes nuc which had the frame rests painted with varnish but I hadn't got around to the masonry paint over the rest of it. The bees were chewing the edge of the rim around the frame area. Maybe they could see light along the crack - but it looks like I need to paint varnish over more of it.

[Jon]

Eh? Was it the mention of Sweinty or the castellations?

A castellations shill comes out of the woodwork. Wonder if that is lucrative.

[prakel]

In what now seems like 'another life' I was lumbered (for the best part of a season) with looking after a gang of langstroth footprint hives which were fitted out to take 13 Smith frames complete with home made quarter inch ply castellations. How I miss those boxes!

[GRIZZLY]

Don't you lot in the north feed your bees??.I've been using Paynes polyneucs for two seasons now with not so much as a chew.Same question to our friend in Brissle.I've used the M.B. hives for two seasons now and, having made some crown boards to allow me to adapt to the use of woodern supers I've had no trouble.I certainly haven't had trouble with stuck frame ends.Also painting - this is a one off and doesn't need re-doing.I've also used Swienty hives - theyre o.k. but very basic i.e. have to paint them and varnish the frame recesses and, whilst having a varroa floor, there is no provision for putting a correx board under to check for mite drop.Again I had to mod the floors by cutting away the back base and adding two strips of wood along the insides to take the boards.It seems all existing polyhives have their plusses and minuses and fall behind wooden hives with regard to interchangeability of components from one to the other.My bees certainly overwintered better in the polyhives and neucs.Like all new things ,it takes time and practice to get used to them after which you wonder what all the fuss was about.When I started with the M.B. hives I very nearly dumped the lot back on M.B. because of the incompatability with the woodern nationals. As a result I bought a set of the Swienty hives which I've used for a season side-by-side with M.B.hives.I found these a bit too basic and have made the decision to stick with the M.B.hives which I now find much easier to operate as I get used to the system and added the parts to produce interchangeability with my wood hives..Each to his own I suppose.

[Adam]

For the same reasons as Fatshark, my MB hive will be out of action in a few weeks. The spacings are just wrong as you can't slide the frames along and bees get squashed - the runners are designed to do this when you put a frame back in. I'm not too keen on the overhang box to box - it's difficult to get them apart. A standard q excluder doesn't fit. The plastic crown-board droops down (top bee space). I've mentioned before that there isn't a bee space between two brood boxes so my top box has a strip of wood on top of the plastic runner to give me the right space and less bees get squashed.

https://sites.google.com/site/browstonbeefiles/photo-gallery/MB%20hive.jpg

Strip of wood inserted and thre arrow shows there is NO gap at the end of the top bars.

I can see advantages of a top bee space. However you can't put a super down easily so I think out of choice - if I started again, I would still chose a bottom bee space design.

The Paynes Nats do have runners and you can either use those which are supplied or drop in a castellated spacer in the slot in a super, so it's well thought out in that regard. Mine are painted on the outside. I've done nothing on the inside and there's been no chewing. A galvanized queen excluder doesn't show up at all; otherwise anything else will be seen as a gap in the poly. The poly IS too soft and with propolis at this time of year, getting them apart is liable to cause damage to them. As I've lost my hive tool and I'm using a chisel as a makeshift one, great care is needed.
The thicker wall of a poly does mean that more bees get squashed.
My main complaint of the Paynes hive is that there are no hand-holds. Lifting 2 supers off is fine with a National - the design is better than a wooden Langstroth in this respect in that there's the whole width of the hive to grip rather than a little slot - the Paynes one is not so good.
The bees have done well in them. 18 frames of brood is a daft amount. 10 on the top floor and 8 below. I don't have too much of a problem with the plastic crown board - well it's better than nothing and doesn't cause a problem for the bees. They need to be well smoked and all the frames clear of wax so it goes down flat. It's still not as good as one with a bee space under it.

My plan is to see how things go with the Paynes Nat for another year. Then decide.

[Adam]

For polynucs, see the gallery of the BBKA site (Adam's Album) for a photo of a hacked about one that is now an 8-framer.

[prakel]

The bees have done well in them. 18 frames of brood is a daft amount. 10 on the top floor and 8 below.

Hi Adam, has there been a corresponding increase in honey compared to your wooden hives? Elsewhere I've read about poly hives giving a 20%/30% increase in harvest, have you found this to be the case too?

[gavin]

For polynucs, see the gallery of the BBKA site (Adam's Album) for a photo of a hacked about one that is now an 8-framer.

Adam's album is here:

http://www.bbka.org.uk/gallery/view_images.php?album=4

And here is his image of the modified Paynes polynuc:

http://www.bbka.org.uk/files/gallery/bbka_album_4_1343376081_large.jpg

I see that the BBKA are claiming copyright! Oh well, the image above is coming straight off their site. Hope that you agreed to transfer all rights to them Adam.

I like the modification. A removable frame feeder in an 8-frame box would be a good combination.

Grizzly: No! I hardly feed mine. Only when they are desperate.

G.

[GRIZZLY]

I recon Adams' mod to the polyneuc is a good idea.When I first saw these neucs I thought "what a good idea to have a built in feeder" but,in practice, the bees fill the feeder with wild comb which is hard to remove without damage.I am going to do the same mod to mine and use a separate frame feeder.Also mod the entrance to give a better lead-in to the bees with a small landing platform.I also got the lec from Paynes which converts the box to 14 x 12 size.Not to use as a converter but as a sort of shallow super to allow candy to be put on top of the frames and allow the lid to seat snugly.Works well.
Gavin is your "only feed when they're desperate" policy Scottish thrift ? or some secret measure bees to make them more self-sufficient and independent.

[Adam]

I think it's too early to say that I got more honey from this colony; yes they did OK but it might be just because it was the bee. A sister queen has done very well in a double National without swarming. A third sister in the MB hive produced swarm cells very early on and has finished up giving me next to nothing.

I have moved the bees from the MB hive. They fitted into a 8 frame plywood nuc. As they were being robbed I have a 1" wide entrance in it. Another issue with the MB hives is that it doesn't have an entrance reducer apart from a full-width piece of plastic, so unless you hack it about, (and some beekeepers can't do that sort of thing) you can't reduce the entrance.


Copyright of photo's. I did question that - apparently most other on-line sites such as Flickr do something similar but they don't tell you. I am mindful that if I had a really amazing picture, I would post elsewhere first. Gavin, are you teasing the BBKA by showing the picture?

The gallery doesn't really work (no change there then!) as pictures have to be approved before they go live so you can't upload and post in one go. I understand the concerns about security but as they are uploaded by BBKA members I don't see the problem; there must be a secure way of uploading. So it's a gallery that doesn't allow you to post straight-away so doesn't work for the forum and the BBKA are relying on a few Forum members to fill it. Hmmm.

[Neils]

Not true for Flickr (I have a premium account so I checked), the copyright is yours (assuming they're your images of course) and you have a number of choices of copyright that you can post pictures under.

Back to the hives, I'm going to treat the second one, at least on the sidewalls by the top bars and see how that gets on in comparison. What can I say? The sidewalls are definitely getting chewed and that's contributing to propolis covered top bars pulling more of the sidewall off.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Is there anybody else selling National polynucs apart from Paynes? The box is fine - just a pity about the feeder.
Kitta

[gavin]

Gavin, are you teasing the BBKA by showing the picture?

Wot, me?!! I think that I was mainly motivated by helping people see it, but this 'copyright' stuff is just another sign that some of their decisions could be better.

Polynucs, Kitta? Yes, there have been other designs around but the low cost of the Paynes one made it an instant hit. Certainly would be worth considering how the others perform.

[prakel]

Slightly different tack now, has anyone here combined the Swienty national feeders/roofs with traditional wooden hives? If you have can you say that you've noticed any stand-out differences in Spring colony strength?

[GRIZZLY]

At least you can mix and match Swienty equipment with traditional wood national hives as the OUTSIDE dimensions coincide.The swienty feeders are great for feeding wooden National,Modern Beekeeping and Swienty hives.It will also sit on top of a Paynes although the Paynes hive bodies and supers protrude as they are dimensionally bigger on their outside dimensions.I've had the odd bee drown however in their excitement to reach the feed as they get pushed under the syrup by the press of bees above.They soon sort themselves out however and I recon the dead bees probably dont exceed 20.

[gavin]

Do you do anything special to the face of the baffle that the bees run down to get access to the syrup? I painted the inside of the feeders with masonary paint and threw sand on the wet surface of the baffle. Didn't see more than one or two bees drowning, but I will admit that they were not full strength colonies. With the clear plastic ('Bayer') cover over the baffle you can stand back and watch the bees first find then sup and call in help as they find the syrup. I was impressed by their multi-tasking. Drinking syrup, ar&e in the air, tip over, and fanning of the wings, all at the same time. The same rough surface inside the Paynes feeder didn't stop mass deaths in them.

[Mellifera Crofter]

The same rough surface inside the Paynes feeder didn't stop mass deaths in them.

Do you think it is the surface, or might the reason perhaps be the small wooden float Paynes send out with the hive? I thought that this float might just flip over with bees on it causing them to drown. I can't do anything about that now because the hive is in use (that's another thing I don't like about a built-in feeder), but I have a new Paynes polynuc and thought that I'll try that one out with a bigger float in it - one that can't flip over.

[gavin]

Not sure, but a broader float would probably help. The feeder compartment is tapered so it might be hard to get this right.

[GRIZZLY]

With the swienty feeders my bees build brace comb in the access slot.I have found that if I leave this in place it cuts down the rush and there is a lot less drowning-so I now leave the wild comb in place.Realy good feeders tho' at the price.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... I've mentioned before that there isn't a bee space between two brood boxes so my top box has a strip of wood on top of the plastic runner to give me the right space and less bees get squashed. ...

I wish I took more note of your post, Adam. I've just discovered the lack-of-bee-space problem when using two MB brood boxes. The space between the frames is about 5mm. Can a bee squeeze through that?

I'll buy another roof and floor so that I can use the two brood boxes as single-brood hives, and then that's it - no more MB nationals.

Kitta

I've just discovered Dave Cushman's page on bee spaces (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsp.html). It seems bees can use a 5mm gap and because the box is polystyrene, the sides will not shrink, so that 5mm shouldn't reduce - but still, it's perhaps a bit tight.

PPS: I found a pair of callipers. The space between the frames is 4mm so, according to DC, only usable by the smallest of bees.

[fatshark]

I made the first of a phased move out of an MB National this w/e ... I transferred the brood to a cedar box (bottom bee space) and then added a 9mm shim built from 32x9mm stripwood. This was built (er, bodged) so the internal space was the same dimensions as the internal space of a National BB. Therefore it protruded out on all sides and provided a platform to balance the (reassuringly heavy) MB supers on top. I think this should solve the bee space problem until the end of the season. This shim will also be useful when I use a clearer board once they've eaten all the honey in the coming week of bad weather ...

Yet again, when dismantling this box, the QE was propolised to the bottom super (despite lashings of vaseline) and they were not happy with me when I prised it all apart :(

I've also bodged a couple of Paynes 8 frame nucs as suggested by Adam via Gavin a couple of page ago. I used "Mega Grip" to glue everything together (and fill the inevitable crevices from my 'surgery') and then added a thin skin of Polyfilla wood filler over the butchered bits, the rough inner poly and around the entrance. The Paynes poly nuc I transferred bees out of into this new luxurious accommodation had 3 inches of fermenting syrup and several hundred corpses in the feeder :(

A few more left to modify before breaking up hives for over wintering nucs ...

[Adam]

I wish I took more note of your post, Adam. I've just discovered the lack-of-bee-space problem when using two MB brood boxes. The space between the frames is about 5mm. Can a bee squeeze through that?

I'll buy another roof and floor so that I can use the two brood boxes as single-brood hives, and then that's it - no more MB nationals.

Kitta

I've just discovered Dave Cushman's page on bee spaces (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsp.html). It seems bees can use a 5mm gap and because the box is polystyrene, the sides will not shrink, so that 5mm shouldn't reduce - but still, it's perhaps a bit tight.

PPS: I found a pair of callipers. The space between the frames is 4mm so, according to DC, only usable by the smallest of bees.

With my MB hive, I tried to pass a 4 mm drill shank between the top and bottom frames with two brood boxes and it wouldn't go, so the space was less that 4 mm. Between a super and brood box the space was about 12 mm (from memory) wigh is too big. I had painted them before assembly, otherwise I might have returned them. The MB hive would make a good 10 frame "nuc" for over-wintering a colony. My MB hive is now empty. The bees had not done as they were told before-hand - like they do sometimes - so now sit comfortably in an 8-frame nuc. I will give them a stiff talking-to so they behave next year.

[Mellifera Crofter]

I don't know, Adam - I might have complained too early. I already have a National MB double brood-box hive in use. I was unaware of the small gap between the top and bottom frames when I put the bees in that one - however, yesterday, when I inspected that hive, the bees were moving quite happily between the two sets of frames. They did not seem to struggle at all. I've seen bees struggling to get through a queen excluder - but not there.

I was wondering whether there might be a reason for the small gap - for example, it reduces the gap in the middle of a mid-winter cluster when the bees are clustered between the two boxes. In nature the combs would have been large sheets from top to bottom - no gap at all. Also, as long as the frames are lined up above each other (and that might sometimes be difficult), does it matter?

Kitta

[prakel]

Has anyone used the Paradise langstroths with the interlocking lip and their beespace split between lower and upper boxes?

Got to say that if I was considering a poly hive their jumbo would appear to be the most competively priced for someone with bees already in md boxes -although I assume that you'd only fit 9 (proper) md brood frames in a jumbo box. On the other side of the coin I imagine that the interlocking feature could easily result in lots of crushed bees.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Yes, I'm using them (MB all-medium hives), but I've now decided to change back to Nationals.

You're right, Prakel - a lot of squashed bees as a result of the interlocking lips. At first I liked them because I thought no wind can force its way into the hive - but I hate hearing that crunching noise. The design of the MB Nationals is better. The top of the box is flat, and the overhanging lip (from the next box up) is slanted so it's a bit easier to push the bees aside.

Why do you think the bee space is split between the two boxes? I'll have to go and check. If you use MB's frames, then I suppose it can be thought of as split, but I thought it resulted in a bottom bee-spaced hive. I've posted this image before:

1217

I haven't tried the boxes with the more usual frames where the lugs are thinner than the top bar, but I was under the impression that if you do, that would change the hive to the usual Langstroth top bee-space. (I do not recommend the MB frames.)

What is an 'md box' and 'md frames', Prakel?

Kitta

[fatshark]

You're right, Prakel - a lot of squashed bees as a result of the interlocking lips. At first I liked them because I thought no wind can force its way into the hive - but I hate hearing that crunching noise. The design of the MB Nationals is better. The top of the box is flat, and the overhanging lip (from the next box up) is slanted so it's a bit easier to push the bees aside.

I increasingly see the overhanging lip of the MB National as good in theory but not in practice. It makes adding boxes askew and gently rotating them almost impossible - you can't see them crawl up or down onto the broad flat connecting faces of the boxes - the and it prevents using a hive tool to separate the boxes. I suspect it does help prevent water ingress and (perhaps) wind, but I think that's one of the things the bees use propolis for.

[gavin]

Sounds like the key design feature of the Wormit hive, widely regarded as a good idea but impractical for those who enjoy neither squashing bees nor chewing up their woodwork with the hive tool.

[Adam]

I don't know, Adam - I might have complained too early. I already have a National MB double brood-box hive in use. I was unaware of the small gap between the top and bottom frames when I put the bees in that one - however, yesterday, when I inspected that hive, the bees were moving quite happily between the two sets of frames. They did not seem to struggle at all. I've seen bees struggling to get through a queen excluder - but not there.

I was wondering whether there might be a reason for the small gap - for example, it reduces the gap in the middle of a mid-winter cluster when the bees are clustered between the two boxes. In nature the combs would have been large sheets from top to bottom - no gap at all. Also, as long as the frames are lined up above each other (and that might sometimes be difficult), does it matter?

Kitta

My concern is that if you slide the frames in the top brood box across, you'll squash bees underneath. Of course it's difficult to slide frames as the ends of the top bars are hard up against the hive!

[prakel]

Why do you think the bee space is split between the two boxes? I'll have to go and check. If you use MB's frames, then I suppose it can be thought of as split, but I thought it resulted in a bottom bee-spaced hive. I've posted this image before:

1217

I haven't tried the boxes with the more usual frames where the lugs are thinner than the top bar, but I was under the impression that if you do, that would change the hive to the usual Langstroth top bee-space. (I do not recommend the MB frames.)

What is an 'md box' and 'md frames', Prakel?

Kitta

Hi Kitta, I did actually ask the question of the guy who used to own MB after wasting too much time staring at the cross section photos on their website and his email reply was that the bee space (with 'off the peg' frames) is split between the two boxes rather than being top or bottom. I have wondered whether this might be in part an effort to avoid lifting the lower frames when removing the top box due their being connected by so called ladder comb; if the boxes were top bee space there would be a greater 'lift' before you could get the hive tool in to break the joining comb.

I think that after a couple of years regular use this ladder comb issue will probably become the bain of their BS type boxes -with such a narrow gap the bees will surely start joining the combs unless of course they're better behaved than mine!

md hives: modified dadant. The proper md frames although superficially the same size as the jumbo are spaced at one and a half inches rather than the one and a three eights (?) of the langstroth jumbo brood frame. I know that some people will disagree with this, but a md frame is -and has always been- based on the one and a half inch spacing. To my mind the narrower spacing moves it into the Langstroth jumbo class. It's based on this that I would assume that the Paradise boxes will only take 9 md frames; the primary assumption being that they're designed to take 10 Langstroth Jumbo frames. None of this is overly important, I was just trying to get my head around the dimensions.

EDIT: It's this frame spacing issue which I believe has resulted in the ability to fit 12 new frames in a national box or to have a slightly larger than necessary gap at the side -the boxes were designed for 11 frames with wider spacing than is commonly available today. In the same way that my (few) BS boxes with external dimensions of 18.5"X20" which were built and used by Manley and written about by him as being 12 frame boxes actually take 13 modern BS frames. Luckily they're a little more forgiving than the national and take the 13 frames easily at all stages.

[prakel]

You're right, Prakel - a lot of squashed bees as a result of the interlocking lips. At first I liked them because I thought no wind can force its way into the hive - but I hate hearing that crunching noise. Kitta

This is my one main issue with the Lyson mini-plus hives, the same lip and the same crunching.

(edit: although they're too small to show any major operating restrictions).

My other dislike of the mini plus hives has been the awful plastic/wood frames which were standard issue up until recently (I believe they've up graded to wood now -once old stocks are sold out) where after a couple of years use the plastic side bars distort and pull away from the push-in bottom bars. Minor nuiscance admittedly.

[nemphlar]

Glad I stuck with smiths poly's, not sure I follow all the issues being discussed. Can anyone explain the British fascination with bottom space nationals. I gave mine away very early in my beekeeping career. No regrets

[Jon]

I use bottom space nationals!
I also use the lightweight plastic excluders which everyone else seems to hate.
You can set these excluders back on after an inspection and they are so light the bees wriggle out from the edges before you put the supers back on.

[GRIZZLY]

I use bottom space nationals!
I also use the lightweight plastic excluders which everyone else seems to hate.
You can set these excluders back on after an inspection and they are so light the bees wriggle out from the edges before you put the supers back on.

O.K. on bottom bee space as they lie flat on top of the frames but hopeless on top bee space as they sag so much.Framed wire are much better on top bee space.You dont trap bees if you put them on diagonally and twist into place.This lets the bees escape crushing.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Glad I stuck with smiths poly's ...

Out of curiosity (because I don't use Smiths), who sells polystyrene Smith hives? On Swienty's 'About Us' page they say they sell them, but I can't see them in their catalogue.
Kitta

[nemphlar]

I bought them from denrosa, only used them this year.

[Adam]

My MB hive is now empty and I've got to clean it. I can't use a blow lamp and scraper; Has anyone any suggestions who's done it before?

[fatshark]

Just use the blowlamp ... in a well ventilated space ;)

I scrubbed mine out with washing soda ... this softens the propolis and makes it easy to remove. MB have more details (http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/p/faqs#cleaning).

[prakel]

...I bought a set of the Swienty hives which I've used for a season side-by-side with M.B.hives.I found these a bit too basic and have made the decision to stick with the M.B.hives which I now find much easier to operate as I get used to the system and added the parts to produce interchangeability with my wood hives..Each to his own I suppose.

I somehow missed this line when origionally posted.

In what sense do you find the swienty hives too basic?

[Poly Hive]

From the perspective of some years of use I will make the following comments.

Poly boxes area push fit and so the timetaken to paint them is in my view part of the construction and takes me some five minutes if that a box. I do not varnish them and never have in over 20 years of using.

Longlevity. I can post you some pics of poly langstroths owned by a friend of mine from Ross-Shire which are some 35 years old and going strong.

Runners. Never used them and see no need to.

If the bees are chewing the poly it is not hard enough and so the boxes are not fit for purpose. Contact the supplier.

Plastic CB... *LOL* Bin it and use either nothing or a 12mm ply one.

Roofs. I put a brick on mine as I use it for messages. For winter I double the bricks as I no longer need the brick code I use in the active season.

The problem at the moment is there are some pretty poor units on sale and as ever buyer beware. What do I buy? Swienty and never so far had an issue.

PH

[GRIZZLY]

Prakel , I've had a rethink concerning the MB hives. Having now used them over two seasons I am finding practical reasons to start disliking them. The faults that have become glaring are their non-compatibility with my old wooden kit, top bee space which gets lost by the sagging Q excluder causing brace comb being built between the brood box and bottom super , causing a lot of regular cleaning off of frame tops , queen excluder and super frame bottoms , manipulation of supers causing gaps to open up in the joints allowing ingress of the sort of driving rain we've had up here this year, dirt and water getting behind the slot-in entrance closeres, roofs not deep enough resulting in mislocation if you are in a hurry to get round your bees etc,etc. - they look alright but as the location recess is only about 8mm deep it's possible to not locate exactly. this does't occour on swienty roofs which are sensibly deeper and difficult to mislocate.

[prakel]

Crikey! The evidence seems to be stacking up against the Paradise offering -got to admit that it's the probable difficulty of interchanging existing wood kit that made me most wary of spending all too scarce resources on trying them. I'm sure that it would be quite easy to build a basic wooden adapter to sit on top of the brood but that's just extra work to make a brand new box work for me. So far it seems that the Swienty model is coming out on top with regards to flexibility.

[fatshark]

I have both Swienty and MB kit ... and much prefer the former. I had to botch a super-wide edge for a National clearer board to fit the MB hives which was the last straw. I'll be selling them them this winter. In contrast I mix and match the Swienty and cedar kit and - at this time of year - use the poly supers to house 12.5kg blocks of fondant opened onto the QE.

[GRIZZLY]

I too made up a special "adaptor" crown board and this resulted in a lot of moisture getting into the hives because the overhanging part seemed to direct the water into the hive mostly because it got soaked with all the rain we've been having. I ended up cutting the overhang off - making the edges of the board flush with the outside of the broodbox.This didn't work very well either because the top of the box tapers all round making location dodgy - the board did however locate into the recess on the bottom of the supers. I put a deep rim on both sides of the crownboard to ensure the bees had somewhere to run to when clearing. I'm now going to order 10 Swienty brood boxes which will replace the MB ones and will make wooden ventilated varroa floors. I dont like the Swienty ones being wider than the National 18 inches for some unknown reason. The roofs however are o.k with their deep recesses.

[Mellifera Crofter]

...The problem at the moment is there are some pretty poor units on sale and as ever buyer beware. What do I buy? Swienty and never so far had an issue.


I too made up a special "adaptor" crown board ...

Would you be able to name names, PH, and give reasons? I don't have PH's experience of beekeeping or of polyhives, but I've tried polyhives from two suppliers over the last two years - MBs and Paynes - and this is what I think so far:

They all have problems with crown boards. In polyhives I only use CBs as feeder boards between the broodbox and an eke (a super). I do not like the wooden ones because I think they would create a cold bridge and, in any case, standard wooden CBs do not fit the MB hives. The the plastic ones are too slippery. I noticed that the super eke can shift about despite being tied down. I've now trimmed the plastic CBs to fit inside the super eke. That works better.

MB: As everybody has mentioned already, they are incompatible with wooden hives and the over-hanging sides are a problem - the Lantstroth ones are worse than the Nationals. There is also the space issue between two National brood boxes - as mentioned before. I think, however, they are the most sturdy ones being made of ultra, ultra high density polystyrene.

Paynes: They have very tight-fitting roofs. It's a struggle fitting them without squashing bees. They also have large landing boards that might be a problem when moving hives. I also think bees struggle with the landing boards in wet weather. I've seen bees flipping over with their wings stuck to the wet polystyrene landing board and unable to right themselves again. The hives are made from a less dense polystyrene - but they arrive ready-assembled.

I've now ordered a new hive from a company in Cornwall, and will probably try a Swienty at some stage. Eventually I must choose.

[Poly Hive]

Not the decision I would make or have made.

I find the Pains design just wrong, a valiant attempt at a full Nat brood box but the scalloped front is a pain and a loss of needed material for warmth. Said material is in my thoughts soft, certainly softer than I am comfortable with. yes they are "ready assembled" and so more vulnerable to breaking in the delicate hands of white van courier man. One of my supers was in bits.

MB? I listened to their spiel at the spring convention two years and had difficulty with my ears. They are obviously not compatible and have a built in weakness with that silly lip. I phoned the old foreman from Steele and Brodie as they produced a nat with the same lip and it was not a success due to gosh, the weakness of the lip.

I buy Swienty as it is the best poly on the go at this time and it works.

Good poly is tough stuff, when I do a chat or demo I jump up and down on it, and I am a decent weight. No issues with strength and I demo that as many still think of poly in terms of packaging.

PH

[Mellifera Crofter]

Not the decision I would make or have made. ...

PH

Thanks for the reply, PH. I'm trying to figure out what decision you're talking about ... Is it cutting down plastic CBs to fit inside a super, or ordering a hive from that company in Cornwall (with their very, very big roofs) - or something else?
Kitta

[drumgerry]

I have 4 of the Paynes offerings and I'm not impressed for the reasons PH states above. Also got a couple of Swienty brood boxes and they are in a different league in terms of quality and density of construction and ease of use.

[Poly Hive]

You are buying the worng units Kitta.

Good poly lasts, I have handled units that are over 35 years old now and still going strong.

Please forget plastic CB's. Use timber or ply they work very well and solid ones mind, no need for chimneys in them...lol

PH

[Jimbo]

I agree with PH I have had poly hives for the last 7 years with no problems. I purchased mine from Murray Macgregor (Denrosa) after seeing poly hives in action in Denmark and at Sweinty. I purchased nationals which fits well with all my other wooden national equipment. The density of the polyhive is quite high and is stronger density than poly fish boxes you sometimes see

[Poly Hive]

Err yes, try jumping on a fish box...lol

PH

[Bumble]

They all have problems with crown boards. In polyhives I only use CBs as feeder boards between the broodbox and an eke (a super). I do not like the wooden ones because I think they would create a cold bridge and, in any case, standard wooden CBs do not fit the MB hives. The the plastic ones are too slippery.

I found that wooden crown boards developed mildew, so stick with acrylic ones which double as feeder boards. A spare piece of acrylic covers the hole when it isn't being used.

Modern Beekeeping Lang Nucs are more dense poly than our Sqienty hives, I can't speak for MB's full size hives because we don't have any.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Modern Beekeeping Lang Nucs are more dense poly than our Sqienty hives, I can't speak for MB's full size hives because we don't have any.
The MB full-size hives are the same density as their Nucs - 'ultra, ultra dense' - that's what a person with a polystyrene factory told me. The new hive I've ordered (mentioned above) from Bee Hive Supplies in Cornwall arrived yesterday. I think it is just, or almost, as dense as the MB ones. Lots better than Paynes. My next hive will be a Swienty - then I can compare and contrast.

[gavin]

Agree about the mildewed ply crown boards. A wired, framed queen excluder is an alternative, as Fatshark uses with fondant on top at this time of year. The Swienty roof designed for top bee space (ie no rim, therefore gives a bee squashing a problem with a bottom bee space Swienty National box) demands some sort of intervention. I like the idea of acrylic crown boards with a rim - must give that a go. Can't see me ever needing to use a feed hole as the Swienty feeders are great and need access along a long strip rather than centrally. I've put these feeders over a wired frames excluder - I think at Murray's suggestion.

[prakel]

Modern Beekeeping Lang Nucs are more dense poly than our Sqienty hives, I can't speak for MB's full size hives because we don't have any.


The MB full-size hives are the same density as their Nucs - 'ultra, ultra dense' - that's what a person with a polystyrene factory told me.

Are not both of these brands meant to be made to +/- 100g per litre? If so, how is there a noticable difference?

[Bridget]

Interesting thread. I've been pondering same as I have 2 plywood CBs that got pretty mouldy looking plus a Perspex one which seems create more condensation so was meaning to get a replacement before it got too cold. The Perspex is on a Swienty poly at present.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fatshark]

Bridget
You should only get significant condensation on the underside of a perspex crown board if it has insufficient insulation above it ... mine have 2" of Kingspan and no condensation. I use them all year round with no problems. Two years ago - the properly cold winter (whilst acknowledging the West Midlands is not really cold when compared to Kingussie :eek:) - the bees formed a flat pancake shaped cluster covering much of the underside of the perspex crown board, presumably the warmest part of the hive.

I've just sourced another sheet of perspex to build another half dozen over the winter ... at a fraction of the cost of the Thornes offerings.

[Bumble]

Are not both of these brands meant to be made to +/- 100g per litre? If so, how is there a noticable difference?

It's difficult to explain the difference. They're both good. I wouldn't swap my Swienty hives because they work and seem sturdy enough to withstand almost anything I could do to them. Same with the Modern Beekeeping nuc.

There is a difference when you see the two alongside each other, unpainted. It's probably the wrong sort of comparison, but if you can imagine two grades of MDF, with one made of finer particles than the other, but still the same 'weight' - they look almost the same, do the same job, but feel slightly different.


Bridget
You should only get significant condensation on the underside of a perspex crown board if it has insufficient insulation above it ... mine have 2" of Kingspan and no condensation.
I think, also, that any condensation on acrylic, perspex or polystyrene is availabel to the bees, and they drink it. An unsealed wooden crownboard will absorb any atmospheric moisture, which could be from bees themselves or from damp air getting into the hive.

[prakel]

There is a difference when you see the two alongside each other, unpainted. It's probably the wrong sort of comparison, but if you can imagine two grades of MDF, with one made of finer particles than the other, but still the same 'weight' - they look almost the same, do the same job, but feel slightly different.

Interesting observation. Just looking at the webpage photos of the two there's something 'sharper' about the Paradise offering but previously I'd put that down to an optical allusion created by the yellow plastic trim of the runners.

I'm going to try a few of the Paradise nuc boxes in the Spring -seems like a way of dipping a toe in without commiting to their full size boxes with that interlocking lip, at the same time I reckon on running a couple Swienty boxes primarily for cell raising -again an easy option as there're then no real issues of having 'odd' hives in the general run of things.

[greengumbo]

At least you can mix and match Swienty equipment with traditional wood national hives as the OUTSIDE dimensions coincide.The swienty feeders are great for feeding wooden National,Modern Beekeeping and Swienty hives.It will also sit on top of a Paynes although the Paynes hive bodies and supers protrude as they are dimensionally bigger on their outside dimensions.I've had the odd bee drown however in their excitement to reach the feed as they get pushed under the syrup by the press of bees above.They soon sort themselves out however and I recon the dead bees probably dont exceed 20.

Do the Swienty feeders fit on Modern beekeeping langstroths Grizzly ? Can you invert them to make an eke for fondant ? The ones supplied by MB dont invert :(

[Poly Hive]

I use the Swienty feeders as fondant covers on my poly Nats. they fit the OD neatly and if the ratio is the same with Lang then they may well fit but that lip is of course the issue. The answer of course may be to saw it off.

PH

[GRIZZLY]

Dont run Langstroths , gumbo , so can't tell you. Mine fit on to all my national based hives despite their variations in O/dimensions. I've left them on the hive over winter in the past with no ill effects - the bees overwintered fine.

[GRIZZLY]

Just taken delivery of my new Swienty poly nationals, I'm now faced with acres of painting. At least I've got the winter to carry out the task. I'm looking forward to transferring my colonies in the spring and being able to beekeep with equipment that matches dimensionally with my old wooden gear. This leaves me with 20 M.B hives to dispose of - any takers , going cheap (1/2 price)

[nellyp]

Looking at things it looks as if the Sweinty is best matched to BBS wooden nats, so my initial order will come from Wales. A good debate for anyone wanting to make an informed dicision. Does anyone operarte 14 x 12 with Sweinty's, If so do you use 2 supers or brood and super to accomodate the larger frame ?

[Mellifera Crofter]

...The Swienty roof designed for top bee space (ie no rim, therefore gives a bee squashing a problem with a bottom bee space Swienty National box) demands some sort of intervention. ...


Looking at things it looks as if the Sweinty is best matched to BBS wooden nats, so my initial order will come from Wales. A good debate for anyone wanting to make an informed dicision. ...

I thought of ordering a Swienty, but following Gavin's remark I decided against it and ordered a double brood box hive with a super from Bee Hive Supplies. It's still a bit too early for me to report back because I only transferred the bees into this hive just before winter - but I'm happy so far. It seems like a good hive and one that is also completely interchangeable with other hives. The roof is very sturdy with lots of insulation and a large rim fitting over the top box.
Kitta

[nellyp]

Gavin note was taken in. I've got some spare wooden equipment so was thinking of mixing and matching by using traditional cb and roof(insulated) with poly brood and floor.
BHS offering looks good however overall dims of the hive aren't comptiable if I wish to mix and match, esp when it comes to
wooden roofs. I'm in agreement with Grizzly I don't want to waste kit I already have so compatiability and ease of use is a serious issue and the Swienty offer looks a little cheaper.

[gavin]

.. so was thinking of mixing and matching by using traditional cb and roof(insulated) with poly brood and floor.

That may work - if you mean ply crownboard on the brood box then a sheet of Kingspan or similar before the roof.

I might (not having spare traditional roofs) consider oiling (boiled linseed oil) a ply crownboard to go between a Swienty National (bottom space) brood box and a Swienty (no space under as they're designed for Langstroths) polystyrene roof. May stop the mould on the crownboard while giving the bee space each side.

G.

[nellyp]

.[/QUOTE] gavin;15156]That may work - if you mean ply crownboard on the brood box then a sheet of Kingspan or similar before the roof


That was my thinking Gavin. Trial and error will see which that does work and that, that doesn't work.

[Poly Hive]

Over engineering me thinks. I have used various combinations over the years of poly or wooden floors, poly brood, ply CB and then either poly roof or timer roof with a chunk of insulation in. I have never treated the prly CB's and have never that I can think of had issues with them. This is over 20+ years on at times quite numerous amounts so not a one hive sample.

PH

[Mellifera Crofter]

... I've got some spare wooden equipment so was thinking of mixing and matching by using traditional cb and roof(insulated) with poly brood and floor. ...

I don't understand why you would want to use a wooden roof with a poly hive, Nelly. You immediately will have to start fluffing about because poly boxes - no matter where they're from - aren't compatible with wooden roofs. I also think that the roof is one of the most important parts of a poly hive. Why have wonderfully insulated walls, and then undermine it all with a wooden roof and crown board?
Kitta

[Poly Hive]

In a word cost.

It is possible to make say three roofs from ply and insulate the top only using say 2" of insulation material for the cost of a poly roof. The insulation value is very similar and if making a deeper roof side then it is frankly a better roof than the off the peg poly as they are terribly skimpy on the side depth.

PH

[nellyp]

All of my wooden roofs have full depth of celotex incorpoaretd in them so why waste more money on blow a way roofs.

[Bumble]

I've got some spare wooden equipment so was thinking of mixing and matching by using traditional cb and roof(insulated) with poly brood and floor.
I'm not sure if a standard wooden roof will fit a poly box, the profile, or footrpint, is different.

Our roofs are fairly thick metal with a single slab of poly inside, no wood anywhere.

[Mellifera Crofter]

In a word cost.

It is possible to make say three roofs from ply and insulate the top only using say 2" of insulation material for the cost of a poly roof. The insulation value is very similar and if making a deeper roof side then it is frankly a better roof than the off the peg poly as they are terribly skimpy on the side depth.

PH


All of my wooden roofs have full depth of celotex incorpoaretd in them so why waste more money on blow a way roofs.


I don't know about the cost. Perhaps it is cheaper, but I wouldn't want to spend all that time fluffing about making new roofs to fit poly boxes when made-to-fit poly roofs come with the hives. The roofs of the Bee Hive Supplies polys have very generous and sturdy overhangs - but I agree, some of the others have no overhang at all.

But either way - big overhang or not - it doesn't really matter as far as blow-away roofs are concerned because I tie all my hives down - whether wood or poly. Don't you?
Kitta

[Poly Hive]

Not everyone buys by the "complete hive" apart from my first one I don't think I ever have. All mine have come as parts, and I have made as much as I could, as you do when working on a scale. I have always used bricks on mine, two on poly and one on wooden when I had them not so much as security for the roofs but as information units. A brick can tell a lot of tales if used to do so.

It makes working an apiary much faster if at a glance the problem units can be instantly identified. They then would be worked first.

PH

[fatshark]

I'm not sure if a standard wooden roof will fit a poly box, the profile, or footrpint, is different.

Our roofs are fairly thick metal with a single slab of poly inside, no wood anywhere.

Standard roofs ... either homegrown or from Thornes or other suppliers fit the Swienty/Denrosa poly boxes sold by C Wynne Jones perfectly well (National size at least, which is what I've got). I mix and match cedar, pine and poly with no problems ... with the exception of th MB poly which I'm going to sell this year. These Swienty/Denrosa boxes are 18"/46cm square (external), have flat interfaces and are very strong. Recommended.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Standard roofs ... ... fit the Swienty/Denrosa poly boxes ... These Swienty/Denrosa boxes are 18"/46cm square (external), have flat interfaces and are very strong. Recommended.

Thanks - I did not realise the outside dimensions of a Swienty are the same as a wooden hive. Maybe somebody has already mentioned it somewhere in this thread, but I've missed it.
Kitta

[Poly Hive]

Agreed. Of all the poly kit I have tested so far the Swienty is the pick.

I rememver at Craibstone there was a Dadant hive which had a 10" roof which effectively made an outer wall. I have long wondered why roofs are not made deeper for the timber hives at least as a 6" depth of side is far less likely to be sucked off by the wind than a 4 even and for sure than a 2". Cheaper obviously, but not near as useful for us, and surely our needs come first?

[Bridget]

I have one cedar and two Swienty poly and mix and match no probs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[nellyp]

Fortunately I have no need to tie hives down as all are located in sheltered positions also I have done plenty of researching and homework before deciding on Swienty broods as a trial, being the most compatiable in exterior dimensions to wooden nats. The only slight drawback is that only 10 frames can be accomodated. As previously mentioned a great thread which helps to make an informed decision that bit easier.

[Bumble]

Standard roofs ... either homegrown or from Thornes or other suppliers fit the Swienty/Denrosa poly boxes sold by C Wynne Jones perfectly well (National size at least, which is what I've got).
Ah, that's the difference I think. Mine are Langs and my wooden roofs won't fit the poly

[nellyp]

Denrosa/Swienty broods arrived Tuesday 8th. Totally compatiable with all my cedar/deal components inc supers ,roofs and omf's etc. Ordered Sunday from C Wynne Jones and arrived Tuesday pm, service as usual from them 100%.

[prakel]

Do the Swienty/Denrosa Smiths share the same external footprint as their Nationals? I seem to remember reading a post by Murray McGreggor in which he said that the feeders were interchangeable which obviously suggests the same sizing; the idea of trying to search that comment out of his voluminous contributions to BKF is a little daunting....

[gavin]

Yes, we got a couple of Smiths by mistake in an order of Nationals. Same footprint and the only change is in the cut-out where the frames sit. The cut-out is narrower (for the shorter-lugged frames) and deeper (for the top bee space).

[Mellifera Crofter]

I just looked at a picture of the Swienty hive on the Wynne Jones website. It seems they come without frame runners. Are all the Swienty boxes without runners and do you have to order them separately?
Kitta

[prakel]

Thanks Gavin, the idea of the more robust end wall (narrower cut out) is quite enticing as is the possible interchange-ability with easily available National kit (if set up as top beespace) which I suppose could be adapted easily enough to take short lug frames.

[gavin]

They don't have frame runners and I don't think that there is enough clearance for them in a National (would be in the Smith). On Murray's advice I varnished the cut-outs and the rims of the boxes.

[GRIZZLY]

Like Gavin , I varnished the lug recesses with HARDCOAT varnish by Dulux. This is a polyurethane based varnish and dries to a very hard finish compared to ordinary varnish. Over 12 months of use there is no sign of damage. I notice the new Denrosa (Swienty) hives from C.Wynne Jones have a new narrower floor design incorporating lugs for the varroa monitoring tray.The old floors looked like an adaptation of the roof fitted with gauze but no tray lugs. I've had to order extra floors to adapt my existing Swienty hives.

[gavin]

The time when you might appreciate the advice is a year or more in when there is a build-up of propolis in some boxes and you want to attack it with a hive tool. Murray said also that some colonies see light through gaps at the top of the boxes and put special effort into chewing their way out, even in this dense poly. Varnish stops that.

I just used an exterior polyurethane varnish, don't remember the brand.

I was nervous of going without frame runners but you soon get used to it and I seldom squash a bee under them. We also have the earlier version of the Paynes nuc boxes which don't have runners (not sure if they do now!) and I varnished them too.

[gavin]

You might find this useful.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/entry.php?143-How-to-assemble-your-brand-new-Denrosa-Swienty-Poly-Hives

[GRIZZLY]

Yep ! my "new" floors are like yours in the assembly instructions. Mine must have been very early floors. Got them from JOHN MELLIS a couple of years ago.

[prakel]

You might find this useful.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/entry.php?143-How-to-assemble-your-brand-new-Denrosa-Swienty-Poly-Hives

The comments regarding rodents are 'near the bone' at present with the carnage that has been inflicted on some of my mini-plus hives over the last month.

My real concern with the National variant is that narrow upstand -shown very well in the photo of the shoulder being varnished. I have considered the possibility of trying the National but nailing quarter inch ply strips across the outside to add protection. Wouldn't be too much hassle with a nail gun....

Just seems that I'm not going to find a poly hive (with the possible exception of the Swienty Langstroth) that suits my requirements unless I do some kind of modification

[GRIZZLY]

Prakel , Never had ANY problems with the thickness of the upstand of the frame recess.If you inflict damage to it during normal frame manipulation ,then you meed to modify your method of loosening frames.I find the hive tool placed between the frames does all the loosening I need and manipulation becomes very easy. Hundreds of these hives are in daily use without problem.

[gavin]

I find the hive tool placed between the frames does all the loosening I need and manipulation becomes very easy.

I came to the conclusion that a J hive tool would be a lot easier than my usual one to lever frame against frame - so Thornes are adding one to my sale order as we speak.

[GRIZZLY]

Yep got one of those at the honey show last year (2012)

[prakel]

Prakel , Never had ANY problems with the thickness of the upstand of the frame recess.If you inflict damage to it during normal frame manipulation ,then you meed to modify your method of loosening frames.I find the hive tool placed between the frames does all the loosening I need and manipulation becomes very easy. Hundreds of these hives are in daily use without problem.

I hadn't really looked at it from a specific frame loosening perspective, just a general concern about a potential weak point. Possibly over thinking something which isn't a problem to begin with but when it comes to spending money on bees I do tend to be very cautious.

[GRIZZLY]

If you're buying plastic , you can't do much better than Swienty hives for ease of use , compatability with existing wooden national equipment , simplicity and durability. In the spring I'm changeing over to them (14 colonies).

[prakel]

One thing which is certain is that the trial hives which I'm going to get for this coming season will definately be Swienty as that's the only brand which I haven't seen major concerns about from the people actually using them. Now it's just a case of which one...

[nemphlar]

I just looked at a picture of the Swienty hive on the Wynne Jones website. It seems they come without frame runners. Are all the Swienty boxes without runners and do you have to order them separately?
Kitta
I fitted runners to my poly smiths, (swienty) mainly because chiseling the frames out in the spring has always been an issue and was concerned i would damage the shoulders. I fitted a 4mm ply runner on the bottom of the CB and QE. If the pro's don't have any issues not sure I'd bother now

[Julian]

I haven't tried the Poly Hive but was part of a group discussion at the local BKA as to there merit. As part of that discussion someone recommended the liberal application of Vaseline to all the flat surfaces once a year. Apparently this prevents problems with propolis, especially around the runners.

[Jimbo]

Yes you could use vasaline. I have not used it on my polyhive brood boxes but have used it on my apidea's which is made of the same material. The reason for using it on apidea's is keep the moving parts from being propolised

[Julian]

My guess is there are two benefits from the application of Vaseline. Firstly that it reduces or prevents the adhesion of propolis to the surfaces it is applied and secondly that it fills the small gaps that, in the judgement of the bees, would need to be propolised.

[Bumble]

Conflicting comments from my local BKA about vaseline, which I have used within the hive without any problems. Some say it's potentially poisonous to bees but don't offer any proof. Any idea where they get this from?

[GRIZZLY]

Conflicting comments from my local BKA about vaseline, which I have used within the hive without any problems. Some say it's potentially poisonous to bees but don't offer any proof. Any idea where they get this from?

Someones imagination?.

[Julian]

Ingestion of large quantities can cause diarrhoea in humans and application to the inside of the nose is not recommended. Why bees would want to eat it I don’t know but if you do have concerns over petrochemicals there are alternatives. Try melting beeswax and mix with 1/2 cup of olive oil for each 1 oz of beeswax but again, ingesting large amounts of olive oil can cause diarrhoea in humans.

[Bumble]

Someones imagination?.
That's what I thought, to be honest. But it's one of those tales that might grow legs and become true.


if you do have concerns over petrochemicals there are alternatives. Try melting beeswax and mix with 1/2 cup of olive oil for each 1 oz of beeswax but again, ingesting large amounts of olive oil can cause diarrhoea in humans.
Thanks for the idea. I'm not really concerned about petrochemicals used in the right place, it would be a bit hypocritical with my poly hives, but the comments were enough to make me stop and think, and ask.

[Jon]

I just ordered over 60 of the Payne poly nucs for members of my association and a neighbouring one.
If you buy more than 30 the price is reduced from £39 to £22.08 in the sale (which ends tomorrow)
I even ordered 2 for myself so I can compare them to my 50p correx nucs

http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/nuc-mating-hives/poly-nuc-hive-with-14x12-jumbo-eke/

[Neils]

Be interested to hear what you make of them. I'm not desperately impressed with the full size hive at the moment, but fir £30 a pop I nearly bought a couple of the Nucs.

[Jon]

Actually they worked out at £20.50 in the end including the eke. Due to be delivered on Monday, 63 of them, and 3 of the full size poly hives.
I am only taking 2 nucs out of that lot.

I have seen the nucs already and they look ok.

[Poly Hive]

Ok deep breath time...

I agree Paynes material is not or at the beginning may not have been dense enough, in "proper" poly bees should not be able to chew it and if they can it is "not fit for purpose" and complain to the vendor. Simple.

Design is another matter and I think based on over 20 years of poly usage, Paynes have dropped the proverbial on a number of issues most of which are highlighted in the thread esp these two, it is very difficult to fit a mouseguard, and why have such deep hand holds? I have until now never needed a mouse guard on a poly hive as the entrance was designed to keep vermin out and in my experience has never failed.

Castellations.. shudders... canna be doing eith the abominations.

Runners. Have never used them with poly and never had an issue so look to your strain. Some bees just love to propolise everything and others use very little. This is under your control if you so wish it.

Feeding. When desperate? Dodgy tatics in my view. I like mine to have stores left over. To that end at Christmass or so I put on a chunk of fondant, and by that I mean a good four or five kilos of, and in Spring what is left over I melt down to make syrup for feeding then. No wastage. I feed in an empty poly super and that works very well or an upturned poly feeder.

The simpler you keep things the more efficient it is for you and the bees, and please remember bees love warmth. In sub zero temps in polys the bees are barely clustered, there is no need and isolation starvation is rare to say the least.

Put prejudice aside and enjoy the benefits.

PH

[gavin]

Be interested to hear what you make of them. I'm not desperately impressed with the full size hive at the moment, but fir £30 a pop I nearly bought a couple of the Nucs.

I bought 15 for the local association bees and have about half of them occupied at the moment. Impressed by the ability to get some very small clusters through the winter.

Bought four for myself when Paynes had their autumn sale, with ekes now that they are available. Very useful, I could see me routinely overwintering nucs in them to replace winter losses or sell.

G.

[Jon]

Price is back up to £30 for the nuc today for bulk purchase or £39.50 for a single one.
Very good value in the sale at £20.50

[Jon]

Just took delivery of 63 Payne nucs on 3 pallets.
They were well wrapped and I don't see any signs of damage apart from a light scrape or two.

[fatshark]

Happy painting Jon!
I've overwintered bees in these this year and last and have been pleased with the way they performed. Mine are all now butchered to remove the internal feeder which I found to be more trouble than it was worth.

--
fatshark

[Jon]

Happy painting Jon!
fatshark

No chance. Only 2 of them are mine!

[Charlie]

I've got 60 of the Paynes poly nucs and am pleased with the way the bees have done in them. However I too don't like the integrated feeder, very poorly thought out. Should of been supplied with an Eke at the same price as standard to allow for feeding or the use as a14*12.

Also got 6 of the poly hives as a trial, again the bees have done very well in them, however there are some serious quality and design flaws. The bees chew them if they find a weak point in the construction, and there are many ! The rooofs are far too tight to fit easily, the feeders are rubbish, too many drowned bees (before the mods) and the landing boards are ugly and unnecessary, too much wasted space for transportation or storage. The Scalloping to the boxes is excessive and degrades the thermal efficiency.

I won't be buying anymore, It's going to be swienty for my next order.

[Poly Hive]

Canna argue with any of those points. I just wish Paynes had done a bit more indepth research before diving in and getting it so wrong. Un-necessary. They sent me on e to review after going into production, pity it was not before.

I have no issues though with the Swienty models apart from the so called "migratory floor" which is far too heavy.

PH

[Black Comb]

If we are talking swienty nucs then the slot supposedly for national frames is a bit of a con. Might it be made for short lugs - perhaps smiths?
After buying I mailed them about this but no reply.
Also, the entrance looks a bit too far under.
Only used them last year so no real evaluation yet.

[Poly Hive]

Don't know the nucs you refer too as the Swienty ones I have are in theory Langstroths which I have modded to take National frames by putting in a feeder at one end. My Paynes remarks referred to the Nat hives not the nucs as I am very not impressed by them.

Just checked the Swienty site and they don't have a National nuc that I can see, this is the one I use: http://www.swienty.com/shop/vare.asp?side=0&vareid=100035

PH

[Jon]

Quite expensive though at 40 Euro plus whatever carriage is added on when you can get a Payne nuc and the eke for £20.50 carriage free for a bulk order.

I'll have a better idea of their attributes by the end of the summer as up to now I have only seen a couple in use.

[Poly Hive]

Well you see it all depends on ones outlook. I have kit which is lasting as I would expect, and if I get 40 years out of it (though I won't as I'll be long dead, but some one else will) then it's a good deal and a good buy. If I spend half the money and get a quarter the life span then I am not amused. Some buy cheap and regret long, I prefer to pay a bit more and enjoy it.

PH

[Black Comb]

Yes that's the Swienty one. I have mainly langs but plan to overwinter some nat nucs using these. I understood that a piece of plywood in the "slot" would suffice butit needs more modding as they are designed for short frames. I don't have any Paynes so can't compare.
Swienty stuff seems well made but I have reservations about that entrance.

I bought mine a couple of years ago (but not used much yet) so they were cheaper. I collected from Stoneleigh.

[Poly Hive]

Yup the entrance is rubbish, I use a 2" cutter and make a new one, then block up the old one. I use a square of ply iwth 8mm holes in it for a mouse excluder and that works well I have found. The nucs thrive in the poly though which is the main thing.

PH

[drumgerry]

Just reading through this thread and noticed the modded Paynes nuc with the feeder removed. Just wondering how people are feeding their bees using the modded version. Is it a frame feeder or does the Paynes eke create enough of a space for a contact feeder?

[Jon]

The eke is about 3 inches deep.

[fatshark]

I built wooden ekes for mine as I considered the £££ Paynes wanted was far too much. The wooden eke houses a block of Kingspan with a central hole to take a kilo of fondant. This solved a further defect in these nucs which is the roof thickness ... or, more correctly, thinness.

14221423

[drumgerry]

I see Modern Beekeeping have their Langstroth nucs on offer at the moment - £29 each. Thinking of taking a punt on a couple and adapting for Nat frames. Anyone used them? They look very nice on the website but looks can be deceiving.

http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/item/135/6-frame-langstroth-nucleus-hive

[The Drone Ranger]

I see Modern Beekeeping have their Langstroth nucs on offer at the moment - £29 each. Thinking of taking a punt on a couple and adapting for Nat frames. Anyone used them? They look very nice on the website but looks can be deceiving.

http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/item/135/6-frame-langstroth-nucleus-hive
They look good but painting needed --whats that all about?why are they not weatherproof?---you don't need to paint a paynes nuc although you do have some other stuff to sort out
I hate painting things :)

[drumgerry]

Ah but I have a cunning plan DR! I spent this Spring painting Swienty hive bodies ad nauseam - mind numbing! But coincidentally for another of my "things" I've just bought an HVLP spray turbine system. Guess what I'm going to be using that for?!

[gavin]

Ah but I have a cunning plan DR! I spent this Spring painting Swienty hive bodies ad nauseam - mind numbing! But coincidentally for another of my "things" I've just bought an HVLP spray turbine system. Guess what I'm going to be using that for?!

You have so much in common with the commercial guys!

[fatshark]

I think I've seen a National conversion of one of these ... with an integral feeder at the end perhaps? Presumably the other forum, possibly by Polyhive?

Painting these sculpted boxes is a real pain ... the "HVLP spray turbine system" (damn that sounds impressive) is undoubtedly the way to go.

MB do a divider for these to make a double three frame nuc. These might be well enough insulated to get one through the winter

[drumgerry]

Yeah Gavin - you can probably tell from my recent postings how keen I am on the commercial operations at this moment in time!

Fatshark - I think I'll try to mod them without an internal feeder to be honest. Just about to cut all of the built in feeders out of my Paynes nucs so don't want to go down that road again. I wonder if I'll have to make my own divider as I think I'll be filling the space with wood/ply where the slot for the divider is placed.

HVLP stuff bought to spray Nitrocellulose lacquer if that gives anyone a clue.

[fatshark]

Here (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=19122#post19122) is the link ... not an MB nuc after all.

Mind your fingers butchering those Paynes boxes. I did all mine using a Stanley knife, a bread knife, some sort of broken off thin saw blade I found in the bottom of the tool chest, about 230ml of blood and some foul language. But they're much better for it.

[drumgerry]

Brilliant! I knew PH would be the one to have done this!

Made a start on one of them tonight before the midgies chased me inside. Managed to saw down flush with the two ends - just have to get rid of the material in the middle now and make a wooden filler for the gap in the frame rest area

[gavin]

Anyone ever tried a hot wire to slice through polystyrene of Paynes density? I could imagine a mini-cheese slice thing on a long handle with a car battery and leads warming it up, the one you thought about using for oxalic but thought better of it. And yes, I know .... wire cheese slicer .... how very Dundee!

(Cue that sketch with the waggly fingers under the chin ....... )

[fatshark]

Brilliant! I knew PH would be the one to have done this!

Made a start on one of them tonight before the midgies chased me inside. Managed to saw down flush with the two ends - just have to get rid of the material in the middle now and make a wooden filler for the gap in the frame rest area

I cut a large slice off the removed feeder wall and glued that in the gap in the frame rest area - waste not want not. Also easy to sand or cut back to leave it flush. If you use Megagrip or similar glue it fills some of the inevitable small gaps.

Pleased to see you still have sufficient fingers to type ...

[Dark Bee]

I cut a large slice off the removed feeder wall and glued that in the gap in the frame rest area - waste not want not. Also easy to sand or cut back to leave it flush. If you use Megagrip or similar glue it fills some of the inevitable small gaps.

Pleased to see you still have sufficient fingers to type ...

One hopes the magnanimity of contributors will extend to condoning my asking (again), why it is deemed necessary to remove the integral feeder. Is it possible to sell the salvaged material at a profit ?:o Being impoverished that would be quite attactive - I'd buy a dozen or more.

[drumgerry]

Why? Dead bees Dark Bee that's why!

[gavin]

I'm bound to lose more than fatshark's 200-odd ml of blood and maybe a finger or three, so am quite likely to persist with them as they are.

The current model comes with not just the QX but a piece of plastic to shut off the feeder if required. Which I'll lose of course. I added sand to the paint for the feeder walls, and have decided that to be bee safe the feeder needs liquid, not fondant, and a good covering of polystyrene scraps. Keep the fondant for overhead feeding with an eke, bought or bodged.

Brace comb in the feeder has happened but not often - had about 10 of these in operation at one time but I suppose the conditions have been poor for the bees and in a good year it may be more of a problem. Unless you seal off the feeder before it happens.

At the moment we have spare full boxes (though they are filling fast) so the policy of moving colonies up to full boxes (Swienty for the association ones) when they're on 6 frames suits me.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

[Trog]

I'm looking forward to receiving my first 3 Paynes polynucs soon so finding this discussion very useful! Hope they turn up today as I've 2 nucs to go to Lismore on Tuesday which are currently in full size boxes with dummies!

[Dark Bee]

Why? Dead bees Dark Bee that's why!

That is what I do not understand. Insofar as I can make out from the photos, the integral feeder is essentially the same as a "traditional" frame feeder. In the latter a float /polystyrene packing beads / mesh on feeder walls can prevent fatalities - so why cannot these techniques be used in this nuc feeder? I'm probably being very obtuse and the reason is obvious. So I'l lhave one brought over sometime and do my own investigations (in my own specially constructed laboratory):cool:

[drumgerry]

Dark Bee the reason why a frame feeder is better than an integral one in my opinion is that a frame feeder can be removed and cleaned up. Any dead bees in the integral feeder can only be removed with great difficulty and generally a foul dead bee/syrup/fondant goop results which can be removed only when you have no bees in the nuc.

[Black Comb]

I see Modern Beekeeping have their Langstroth nucs on offer at the moment - £29 each. Thinking of taking a punt on a couple and adapting for Nat frames. Anyone used them? They look very nice on the website but looks can be deceiving.

http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/item/135/6-frame-langstroth-nucleus-hive

I've run MB poly nucs for several years and like them. I run jumbo LS, also have some Swienty LS standard size. the MB standard LS are exactly same as jumbo but shallower.
The MB ones are from Paradise Honey and are well made. They have a separate floor with mesh. They have a lip between floor and body and between body and roof. This lip is good in nucs but I would not like it in a standard hive as things like crown boards and QE could prove messy.
The nucs are six frame and have an entrance at the back and front, allowing you to run 2 x 3 frame if you wish. Or you can buy a pre-cut piece of correx from them as a separator.
In use I find them good. Also, the service from MB is generally good too.
They also sell a top feeder specially for these nucs (I have one but am yet to use it).
Painting - well MB advise that all poly contains minute cracks which over time will allow a little water ingress and when it freezes.........
Also, 2 coats of masonry paint inhibit UV degradation. Doesn't take long.
The separate floor is a bonus over the Swienty ones, meaning easier to clean.
You can also purchase special entrance closures/reducers, one for each end. Can use gaffer tape at one end of course.

2 pieces of plywood and 4 screws should convert them to nationals. As stated, you could use the gap at one end as a feeder.

[Dark Bee]

Dark Bee the reason why a frame feeder is better than an integral one in my opinion is that a frame feeder can be removed and cleaned up. Any dead bees in the integral feeder can only be removed with great difficulty and generally a foul dead bee/syrup/fondant goop results which can be removed only when you have no bees in the nuc.

Thank you for the elaboration Drumgerry. What you say makes sense and is quite obvious now. Swi-bines also have a fixed food chamber, but are more accessible and q-cage fondant may be used which would eliminate the drowning problem. It will be interesting to see what changes Paynes make to the design in light of the consumer opinion. I would suspect very little as the cost of new moulds must be phenominal.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thank you for the elaboration Drumgerry. What you say makes sense and is quite obvious now. Swi-bines also have a fixed food chamber, but are more accessible and q-cage fondant may be used which would eliminate the drowning problem. It will be interesting to see what changes Paynes make to the design in light of the consumer opinion. I would suspect very little as the cost of new moulds must be phenominal.

Hi Dark Bee
You are right to change the design would be hard
If you look at the integral feeder the rib on the inside of the hive is very thick
That's good for strength but that thick web comes up to the roof and crushes bees
so by adding a bolt on piece to the injection mould that rib could be lower by just over a bee space
That saves a bread knife mod to the rib
alternatively a remould of the roof could allow for a crown board that would be very welcome
The material is very dense, and they are great for the money, don't need painting, so could be the only sensible choice with some tweaks

[gavin]

The new version has a sheet of thin perspex with them which I like as it allows you to usher bees to safety before the lid goes on. The picture on the Paynes site doesn't show these improvements.

It also has a different entrance which implies the mould was changed - no longer the slot at the base but a hole part of the way up the side with one of these birling disks to allow queen exclusion/inclusion, ventilation only, or just shut. Better for keeping mice out.

I agree the rib is fat but it gives insulation in the winter from cold feed if you still have any, and the perspex sheet stops you crushing bees (with a little care). You wouldn't want to drop the rib by a bee space as currently you can insert a queen excluder or just a total excluder in the depression, shutting off the feeder entirely.

I like the new version and may get a few more if it is in the autumn sale.

[brothermoo]

It's actually a tool that is made for each design... Ten to fifteen grand I was told by their manufacturer when looking into poly rose osb's.

Roger Payne had a big outlay! The entrance is cut from the main design so it was easier to change

__________________
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[gavin]

Thanks BM, didn't realise they were cut out.




I like the new version and may get a few more if it is in the autumn sale.

Especially as a couple of spots of lemongrass oil made a mess of one of my four!

No further adventures with the stuff to report tonight :)

[The Drone Ranger]

It's actually a tool that is made for each design... Ten to fifteen grand I was told by their manufacturer when looking into poly rose osb's.

Roger Payne had a big outlay! The entrance is cut from the main design so it was easier to change

__________________
sent via tapatalk

Maybe the SBA could design one and raise the money charitably to pay for the tool
Then churn them out till they get the money back

[robin118]

I have two of the paynes nucs the older ones with the slot entrance. I think in general they are ok but I do not like the internal feeder. My mane gripe with them though is I think the roof is too thin it should be thicker giving more insulation.

[Adam]

I don't like the internal feeder either so I cut it out.
http://www.bbka.org.uk/files/gallery/bbka_album_4_1343376081_large.jpg

[robin118]

I don't like the internal feeder either so I cut it out.
http://www.bbka.org.uk/files/gallery/bbka_album_4_1343376081_large.jpg

I have thought about doing this in the past and have suggested it to other people after seeing it on here. However I use langstroths so only use the paynes nucs in an emergency.
The comment of the lids being to thin on the national poly nucs comes from several nucs being transferred from the national nuc to full poly langs and doing so much better even in the bigger hive I belive this is due to thicker lids meaning more top insulation.

[fatshark]

robin118 ... this is all sounding good since I've ordered some poly Lang nucs following the earlier tip from drumgerry about the current offer from ModernBeekeeping. These should be here Tuesday and are destined for conversion to Nationals - either six frame or twin three frame. The feeder on the Paynes box is poor, but can be avoided, the lid is hopeless. At the frankly daft prices some people are charging for nucs this year you can get half a dozen empty nucs for the same price ...

[Dark Bee]

The new version has a sheet of thin perspex with them which I like as it allows you to usher bees to safety before the lid goes on. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..
I like the new version and may get a few more if it is in the autumn sale.

I bought two of this new design on yesterday (Sunday)afternoon. On has a black disk and the other a white one:rolleyes:. They are of beaded and not extruded construction and although I do not have anything with which to compare them, the quality and design do not over impress. There are totally unnecessary slots underneath the lid, presumeably to aid it's removal - what a farce, the lid falls off at every opportunity. I can see myself having to make 9" deep roofs with 2" of insulation to bring them up to standard. I shall not be butchering the feeder - cost too much and can stay! My faith in my old fashioned, well used wooden nucs has been restored. But as always what works for one may not work elsewhere and vice versa.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... I can see myself having to make 9" deep roofs with 2" of insulation to bring them up to standard. ...

Did you buy the eke as well? If not, I think using the eke filled with insulation would be easier than making roofs - and neater too. That's what I do.
Kitta

[gavin]

Even without additional insulation bees seem to winter very well in them. That has to be the important thing. The roof is a good fit as well as made of poly and that has to count for something. If you modify the roof, there is likely to be more of a draught unless your craftmanship is very good. Filling the eke sounds good though.

[Adam]

The design does have weaknesses - but credit to Roger Payne who put his hand in his pocket and paid for the mold tool in the first place. As you write Gavin, bees do seem to do quite well in them - unless they drown in the feeder which is why I removed it. All right..., butchered it.

[Trog]

We've just received 3 of the latest design Paynes nucs and they seem to have dealt with most of the previous design faults (apparent to us in one sent over for a nuc). Transferred 2 nucs into 2 of them so we'll see how they do compared with our previous method of either having two nucs in a twinstock or a nuc taking up a whole brood box with dummies. One spare now but probably not for long as the bees are feeling prosperous and will probably be thinking about swarming!

[drumgerry]

6 of them arrived today together with 3 of the Modern Beekeeping Langs. The Paynes poly seems a bit harder than on the two I already have or maybe it's just that they've got a winter under their belts. I like them. People criticise them but they work. Bees stay alive in them! Just moved a swarm into one of my old ones with removed feeder and I'm glad they won't have the option to build comb in that now. It's going to hurt (without bloodshed I hope!) to butcher the new 6 but it's got to be done.

The MB ones are made of "proper" poly but it's going to to take a bit of work to get them to take Nat frames.

[fatshark]

I received half a dozen of the MB poly Lang nucs today, also destined for National conversion. Like their full National hives the poly is reassuringly dense. Let's compare notes after the attempted conversion.

[The Drone Ranger]

6 of them arrived today together with 3 of the Modern Beekeeping Langs. The Paynes poly seems a bit harder than on the two I already have or maybe it's just that they've got a winter under their belts. I like them. People criticise them but they work. Bees stay alive in them! Just moved a swarm into one of my old ones with removed feeder and I'm glad they won't have the option to build comb in that now. It's going to hurt (without bloodshed I hope!) to butcher the new 6 but it's got to be done.

The MB ones are made of "proper" poly but it's going to to take a bit of work to get them to take Nat frames.

You can get foam from Dunelm Mills etc in sheets
I just cut a length and plugged the whole feeder slot along the top that stops the comb building

Then just get the bread knife and make a slope on that thick middle rib to avoid squishing bees

[Black Comb]

Yes please post as I have some to convert too.
(Plan to run some nationals alongside my langs.)

[drumgerry]

157015711572

I converted one of the lang nucs tonight. Not a big job really. Just some 3/4" ply, a bit of Kingspan wrapped in duct tape and an offcut of 10mm perspex. Also had to chisel a couple of slots for the ply to get it to sit flush with the floor. The way I've done it I've pretty much lost the option to split it into two 3 frame nucs but I'm not bothered about that. I didn't use any glue so if I eventually want to do that in retrospect it won't be too difficult. And the fact that I've used some Kingspan for gap filling will make it critical to use some form of mouseguard in the winter.

[fatshark]

Hi drumgerry
Where are the chiselled slots? Are they in the floor at the sides? I think I'm going to do the three frame conversion first using 6mm ply for the central divider. Correx would work but I want something a little more rigid to attach the 'ends' to. What are you going to use for a cover? Thick plastic sheet? Looks like you've opted for bottom bee space (or sacrificed the top bee space). The alternative I've used on my Paynes nucs is 2mm Perspex which I just slide back from one end and the bees either take off or retreat under. I reckon it might be possible to have a half and half 2mm cover board for a twin three frame nuc, so that opening one side doesn't let all the bees out from the other ... I have a 'Twinstock' divided National brood box with a plastic cover sheet pinned along the centre which works very well. I just replace it when it gets too mucky to see through.

[drumgerry]

Yep - in the floor at the sides Fatshark. So easy to do in poly with a sharp chisel! I have a little Pfeil 10mm one which was perfect. I have some 3mm perspex I can use for a crownboard - bloody useful stuff perspex is but a bit scary cutting it on the table saw and mitre saw! And yep I've gone for bottom bee space but I could take the runners out and get the top bee space back. Couldn't be ar*ed getting it into shape for a twin nuc but it'd be great to see your pics when you've done it.

[drumgerry]

Just had a thought that if you could be bothered and have the tools you could rout or table saw a slot in the ply ends to take your 6mm divider. Make the slot 7mm wide and it'd be easier taking it in and out. No need for cabinet-making tolerances here!

[fatshark]

2-5mm Perspex can be snapped pretty easily ... just deeply score it using a metal straightedge and Stanley knife then lay the edge along a suitable right angle (table, bench etc.), clamp a length of wood along the top and then sharply snap it down. I've done this with up to 6'x4' sheets. Much easier than a saw!

[fatshark]

Ha! I can't afford the life insurance premiums necessary to use a router ...

[drumgerry]

Great tip Fatshark - thanks! I've had my heart in mouth moments especially with the mitre saw when the perspex snaps with an almighty bang - not for the faint of heart!

[drumgerry]

Cutting straight slots with a router is a doddle - not so dangerous really! But even easier with the table saw just moving the fence in little increments till you've got the slot width you want.

[The Drone Ranger]

If you don't fancy the stanley knife for scoring then the tile scorer is less likely to lop bits off your fingers
http://www.maplin.co.uk/tct-tile-scorer-150mm-618744?c=maplin&utm_source=gcs&utm_medium=gcs_search&utm_campaign=N68KY&utm_content=Building&{ifpe:_$ja=tsid:49900|cgn%3A{adtype}kw%3A|N68KY}{i fdyn:_$ja=tsid:49900}&_$ja=cgid:7690035763|tsid:49900|cid:119050603|lid: 44978789563|nw:{ifsearch:search}{ifcontent:content }|crid:26685292123&gclid=CKfy6a-G7bcCFYXMtAodUC4A-g

You get them in any diy that sell bathroom tiles

[Black Comb]

Thanks DG. Neat job.
I see you've even used their frame runners.

[fatshark]

Has anyone used thinned solvent-based exterior gloss paint on dense poly hives? I've been searching the interwebs and see Murray (ITLD in the other place) recommending 'gloss' paint but have managed to avoid almost all decorating in my life, so don't know whether all gloss is solvent based or not. Being mean I bought some Wilkinsons Evergreen external gloss - on special offer for about £8 - and hoped to use it. It is solvent based.

I'm half way through converting a MB Lang nuc into a 2x3 frame National and would prefer the entire thing didn't melt in front of my eyes when I paint it ...

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Fatshark you do get gloss acrylic (water based paint)
Lots of fumes off the solvent based paints
High VOC I think that's Volatile Organic Compounds mean don't breath this :)
PVA might protect them enough ?
You can water it down thin

[gavin]

Don't paint it with lemongrass oil, that would be my hot tip for the night. Must take some pictures of the outcome of the drops that didn't get wiped on my jeans. Yes, they do use exterior gloss. I remember a conversation on the lack of effect of solvents but wouldn't like to give advice on the basis of a half remembered natter. The paint is usually sprayed on, which might reduce the solvent load. I just went for masonry paint as suggested by John Laidler of MB at the time.

[The Drone Ranger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75rKRXI87SE
This is a spray paint so would have more solvents in a can
Wonder whats in Lemongrass oil Gavin
Lots of window/door paint is Acrylic these days

[fatshark]

That's exactly the effect I'm trying to avoid. Looks like I'll be seeking a refund and going with the masonry paint again ... around here the colours are rubbish, brick red, black, magnolia etc. I've used the red, it's OK, but the tin is almost empty and I fancied a change. It's also matt and doesn't seem particularly hard wearing.

[gavin]

Try a pm to Murray on the other site. I know he's busy but he does like to be helpful when he can. I imagine that they use the same stuff as you've got, perhaps thinned for industrial-scale spraying (when the neighbours were out, I was told!).

[The Drone Ranger]

Nip into the DIY like B&Q I think they can mix any colour you like
It starts white and they just bung in the dye and start up the paint shaker thing
http://www.trade-point.co.uk/services/paint-mixing/
this sort of thing
http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/HomebaseStaticPageSecondLevel?storeId=10151&includeName=HBCustomerServiceArticles/instoreservices.htm

[drumgerry]

What is it about masonry paint and pastel colours?! Or the alternative.....sh**e brown!

Just bought a tin of Dulux Weatherseal smooth masonry paint in washed out green. But I am going to thin it a bit and try to spray it! I'm told HVLP spraying doesn't create much overspray but we'll see....

[fatshark]

Thanks DR ... those fancy services come at a price. Somewhere in the region of £25-30 for 2.5 litres I think. Since my son recently announced that, by his calculation, I'd be at break even point in my beekeeping income/outgoings if I sell 200kg of honey a year for the next 5 years i'm trying to minimise my costs.

Of course, his maths is rubbish and he has no idea about the enormous pile of flat-packed poly nucs behind the even larger pile of already assembled cedar brood boxes.

[Neils]

We really do need the like button on here. :D

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks DR ... those fancy services come at a price. Somewhere in the region of £25-30 for 2.5 litres I think. Since my son recently announced that, by his calculation, I'd be at break even point in my beekeeping income/outgoings if I sell 200kg of honey a year for the next 5 years i'm trying to minimise my costs.

Of course, his maths is rubbish and he has no idea about the enormous pile of flat-packed poly nucs behind the even larger pile of already assembled cedar brood boxes.

You get the exact colour of hive you want though
What price should we place on Art ?

You are so right about escalating costs Fatshark
I used to loyally buy everything from Thornes but can't buy anything there now because they have gone mad overpricing things

[Dark Bee]

You get the exact colour of hive you want though
What price should we place on Art ?

You are so right about escalating costs Fatshark
I used to loyally buy everything from Thornes but can't buy anything there now because they have gone mad overpricing things

Do try and be more understanding - new premises need paying for.;)

[Trog]

Get a can/tub of ordinary white masonry paint, then some tubes of (water based) acrylic paint in primary colours from a local art shop. Using the white as a base (in a jam jar or tin), mix as much of each colour as you like, as pastel or otherwise as you like. All hives can be different colours and you'll end up with a Balamory-style apiary ;)

[drumgerry]

Brilliant Trog! I'm going to do just that - sick of pastels!

[madasafish]

Thanks DR ... those fancy services come at a price. Somewhere in the region of £25-30 for 2.5 litres I think. Since my son recently announced that, by his calculation, I'd be at break even point in my beekeeping income/outgoings if I sell 200kg of honey a year for the next 5 years i'm trying to minimise my costs.

Of course, his maths is rubbish and he has no idea about the enormous pile of flat-packed poly nucs behind the even larger pile of already assembled cedar brood boxes.

Eeek!

I reckon on covering my running costs each year by selling one TBH nuc for c £120.

My original investment in hives is around £250... due largely to self build and pallets. Of course I will not get 200kg of honey a year :-(

[fatshark]

Nor will I ;-) But keep that a secret.

[Calum]

Nor will I ;-) But keep that a secret.

Guys, come on its easy.
Forget about honey, its alot of work and too often a discussion about why its more expensive than Aldi.
There is far more money in selling colonies, less work too.
I aim to sell 20 colonies again next spring, I figure 15€ for frames and foundation, 3€ Varroa treatment and 8€ for feed. With colony prices at 120-140€ here thats a tidy profit. Six frame colonies sell like hotcakes and need less of everything.

5 queens out of the incubator yesterday, 10 sealed cells in, and 20 cells grafted finally the queen raising is gaining traction...
got myself 1000 chinease grafting tools from China last week. Paid 250€. they flog them for 5€ a shot here, obsene - I'm tempted to give them away....

[drumgerry]

I think you make a really good point there Calum. To be honest the aspects of beekeeping that interest me concern the bees themselves. Their life cycle and the breeding and improvement of them. Honey's all well and good but it interests me far less. So like you I would prefer to be producing nucs and queens as a means to make a little bit of income from beekeeping.

[fatshark]

Trog ... I think we need to tag that last suggestion of yours as a "top tip".

Calum ... and add to your calculations queens throughout the season at perhaps €20-30 ... I'm well-aware of this but hoped it could be kept a secret as well ;) All this discussion of profit is delaying me getting the Bentley serviced ...

By the way ... what possible reason would anyone have for 1000 Chinese grafting tools? Or any, for that matter. They're not single use versions are they? I use a paintbrush and lick it between larvae. I paid £2 for it ... by my reckoning I'm nearly €245 in profit for grafting tools alone :p

[The Drone Ranger]

I think you make a really good point there Calum. To be honest the aspects of beekeeping that interest me concern the bees themselves. Their life cycle and the breeding and improvement of them. Honey's all well and good but it interests me far less. So like you I would prefer to be producing nucs and queens as a means to make a little bit of income from beekeeping.

Years agp I used to sell some hives of bees when I had too many
That's a sort of side effect of using swarm boards if you don't recombine you end up with 2 brood boxes of bees
It was almost always a complete pain-- Folk would arrange to collect the bees then change their mind and want to come the following weekend.
They would agree the price then haggle to pay less when they came to collect
They would ask for hives to be kept and not sold then still haggle about the price
They told sob stories -- in one "deserving" case I agreed to sell the broodbox with floor crown board roof and 11 frames plus full colony of bees for £40 where my deserving needy customer then announced "well if they are that price I'd like 3"
I sold 2 complete hives new boxes from Stanfordham Broodbox super all frames bees roof floor crown board and excluder £100 x 2 to a hotel
They expected training and support forever so when the staff member looking after the bees left they expected me to drive there as often as it took to train someone else and get their honey crop
I have had some people buy bees in a wooden 5 frame nuc for £50 they let them die and came back for more I gave them the replacements free they let them die as well for the cost of some sugar syrup
I have had people ask me for a queen for their hive which swarmed and was queen less I give them the queen free they go away with it I ring up to see how it went
"Oh I think we had a queen in there after all" Ok what happened to the one I gave you " we just let it go" Go where for gods sake
No! No! selling bees is not a prospect I could be dragged back to
In fact when Perth and Angus were asked not to move bees or sell them after the EFB scare I was happy I just had to say "sorry no can do"
I met lot's of nice people selling them bees but also enough of the other kind to last me a lifetime

[Jon]

DR. I know exactly where you are coming from with that tale, especially the bit about lifetime support.

[drumgerry]

I think there's a danger that because we're all such bee enthusiasts we can try too hard to help people when they get bees - much as you describe DR. For myself I don't mind the odd email if someone's in need. But what I'm not prepared to do is make up for people's lack of effort to learn for themselves. I think we all have to make it very clear to new beekeepers that we don't have the time to hold their hands when a bit of research or a quick scan of Ted Hooper's book would solve their problem.

I don't think we have to trip over ourselves to please potential buyers when bees are in such demand these days. But like I said I'll answer a few questions and help out where there is a genuine need or for a suitable fee (and I make no apology for that). It's taken us years to acquire these skills and this knowledge guys. We shouldn't be selling ourselves short! In what other sphere would people be expecting decades worth of expertise for nothing?!

[fatshark]

Academia!

[drumgerry]

Fatshark - lecturers get paid!

[gavin]

By the way ... what possible reason would anyone have for 1000 Chinese grafting tools? Or any, for that matter. They're not single use versions are they?

I accidentally put one through the wash the other week. It came out as good as new. Just thought I'd throw that one in in case there are any improverished academics (ha! contradiction in terms ... ) looking in.

[fatshark]

Fatshark - lecturers get paid!

They get paid to lecture ... but the entire peer-review system, on which science is funded and published, is based on goodwill and is unpaid.

Gavin ... "Chinese grafting tool" and "It came out good as new" is not necessarily a strong recommendation :o

Just back from setting up my Ben Harden system for round 2 of grafting ... bees are in a great mood and so am I :)

[gavin]

Years agp I used to sell some hives of bees when I had too many

[snip]

I met lot's of nice people selling them bees but also enough of the other kind to last me a lifetime

I've sent several people your way over the years and never actually met you (AFAIK). They were all nice people as far as I could tell LOL!

Anyway, just wanted to say that I know you *gave* six colonies to a local social enterprise (and lots of your time), and I've always thought that an act of extreme generosity.

I used to give colonies away but am now selling as it does take work, and does cost me materials, time, petrol and honey. I don't know anyone I've sold colonies to who you'd say was in the category of a PITA who does little to advance their own beekeeping skills, but I know they are around.

You can blame/thank me for the advice not to move colonies out of Perth and Angus in 2009. As EFB is in the Lothians and Aberdeenshire and much more under control than it was then I think folk should relax a little, although it is a disease that pops up after lying hidden (in bees possibly) so moving bees to completely unaffected areas must be wrong.

[fatshark]

DR and Jon
I sell nucs to beginners in our association, very rarely to anyone else. We are a large association and have a lot of beginners. My experience is generally very positive. We work hard to train them, operating a loan hive scheme for their first year and provide mentoring (not necessarily from the nuc vendor). They do sometimes need help, but they are generally grateful to receive it. In my first year I lost/killed the Q in my purchased nuc (I discovered later she was probably an import) and the guy I bought it off provided me a frame of eggs to get going again. I generally have queens spare and am usually happy to supply them to help careful beginners who are keen to learn.

Are your negative experiences with association members or Joe Public?

[The Drone Ranger]

I accidentally put one through the wash the other week. It came out as good as new. Just thought I'd throw that one in in case there are any improverished academics (ha! contradiction in terms ... ) looking in.
I bought 20 of them for £5-00 because I pull the ends off loose the spring bend and break them in my bag or pocket
Sometimes the quill bit comes loose but they are great really (and the weapon of choice for blind grafters)

Jon and Drumgerry
I know that's a list of moans but honestly it's the tip of the iceberg
I would rather folk go to their local assoc and if I had bees available I would tell the assoc (even if I'm not a member)
If say Thornes sell a £300 hive and point the newbie at me for bees I want to help but sometimes wish I hadn't

[Jon]

D
Are your negative experiences with association members or Joe Public?

I would not describe my experiences as negative but you get such a demand on your time it is hard to keep up.
Some beekeepers are keen to go it alone with the occasional bit of advice but others want someone with them every time the crown board comes off. This is ok at the start but when you get someone in year 2 or 3 still looking for help all the time it is a bit much.
They maybe need to look at whether beekeeping is the right hobby for them at that point as you cannot do beekeeping by proxy.

What I try and do is channel all the advice and mentoring into the Monday and Thursday night sessions we run.

[drumgerry]

Maybe it's just me but I'm happy to draw a line under how much of my time I'm willing to give away for free. Possibly it's because I have young-ish kids and I need to balance/prioritise how much time I spend on each of my activities. People still coming to me for advice in year three would (if they're lucky) get a few links in an email and some advice to research the problem themselves. Some time spent on here or the other forum would teach them a lot of what they need to know.

You guys clearly have more patience than I do!

[mbc]

Maybe it's just me but I'm happy to draw a line under how much of my time I'm willing to give away for free. Possibly it's because I have young-ish kids and I need to balance/prioritise how much time I spend on each of my activities. People still coming to me for advice in year three would (if they're lucky) get a few links in an email and some advice to research the problem themselves. Some time spent on here or the other forum would teach them a lot of what they need to know.

You guys clearly have more patience than I do!

Well said !
When life gets busy something has to give and in my opinion one of the first things to go should be time spent on people unwilling to help themselves.

[drumgerry]

Well...maybe I did sound a bit harsh on reflection. I should say that I'm less bothered about spending time on the sharing of information. In the spirit of sharing if you know what I mean. And if it's something I know (probably from being enlightened on the matter by someone on here if truth be told!) and others don't. But not endlessly repeating basic stuff which people can find out for themselves if they could be bothered.

[Calum]

DR I'll discuss the price if the hive is not full of bees, otherwise I'll tell them it's a sellers market and they can get to the back of the line. It's their petrol.
Grafting tools - I sold 100 so far, 150 more and I covered my costs, after that its all profit, or I'll give the rest away, can't really be bothered with the footwork for that margin, no challenge in it either.

[Calum]

And never give a colony away to a newbie. They don't look after them the same if they were free. If they pay for them. Every colony I gifted anyone was not well taken care of. Sold colonies have a habit of surviving longer...

[The Drone Ranger]

And never give a colony away to a newbie. They don't look after them the same if they were free. If they pay for them. Every colony I gifted anyone was not well taken care of. Sold colonies have a habit of surviving longer...

That's good advice Calum
You feel you want to help get folk started but there is a right and a wrong way
I would never make a living selling anything like bees :)
Turns out the chinese grafting tools were 10 for £4.98 (not 20) free P&P
Ebay is the place to sell them you will make a good profit easily on your bulk buy
Mostly they sell about £1-00 each as singles

[fatshark]

Get a can/tub of ordinary white masonry paint, then some tubes of (water based) acrylic paint in primary colours from a local art shop. Using the white as a base (in a jam jar or tin), mix as much of each colour as you like, as pastel or otherwise as you like. All hives can be different colours and you'll end up with a Balamory-style apiary ;)

Just tried this ... it's looking expensive, and not in a good way. It turns out that white masonry paint has an awful lot of white in it. I added 75ml of acrylic green and got very pale green. I suspect that even at 1:1 the colours would all end up very pale.

I then added the remnants of a can of brick red masonry paint ... Yuck. A sort of pinky, greeny colour. Not good.

My recommendation would be "Don't do this at home" unless you can afford a lot of acrylic paint :)

[drumgerry]

Yep sorry Trog I did it too and I already had a tin of pale green paint. It is now slightly less pale!

I did notice this on Ebay though and wondered if it might be more effective.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151025947728?var=450164169292&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[madasafish]

I paint poly/insulation with masonry paint. When dry cover with Cuprinol Garden Shades....

[fatshark]

If you go to all the trouble to convert a Paynes poly nuc to 8 frames ...

1663

... make sure you use 8 frames !

[Jon]

And make one of them drone comb to keep them happy.

[fatshark]

Hmmm .... less sure of that. I want them to build up, not get swamped with drones. I think an expanding nuc has less need of drones and suspect that a full frame of drone comb might encourage them to think about early swarm preparations. I might consider adding a shallow frame and let them build what they want below ... except I've just used my last few (and use drone foundation in supers anyway D'oh!)

[drumgerry]

Hey Fatshark - looks like they've built their own drone comb there to save you the bother!

[Jon]

Hey Fatshark - looks like they've built their own drone comb there to save you the bother!
That's what I was getting at!
The nuc is obviously strong enough to think of making a few drones.

[gavin]

I have to say that despite the talk of thin roofs, seemingly smallish populations of bees (in my 6-frame versions) can sustain wall-to-wall rapid expansion when conditions are right. The insulation must be contributing to their success.

[The Drone Ranger]

Bees do build up quickly in the Paynes Nucs

Fatshark
They might like a bit more leg room in a full size hive :)

I just moved the swarm I put in a Paynes Nuc not long ago
They were on 6 frames of which 5 frames of brood now
Two brood boxes, Big spacers and 6 frames of foundation in the top box over the brood
1:1 syrup to help them draw out the wax
Was a bit dull today they are Buckfast/Italian type bees very healthy slightly grumpy (not followers though)

[gavin]

One with wall-to-wall brood and eggs is now settling in to a full sized wooden National in Sylvia's garden. Another is doing the same in the grounds of Hillcrest in Dundee. One concern is that there seem too few bees for the brood especially when placed in a large wooden hive, but before a week is up there will be maybe 3 frames of brood hatching producing 6 frames of bees to help the effort. I'm sure that if they were in a wooden box (or even a correx one) from the start they would not build so quickly.

All fed completely on floral forage of one kind or another :). Rape, sycamore, fruit, hawthorn and now ragwort, lime, spring rape, bramble and clover. Willowherb is just coming out too. Saw decent stands of bell heather in full flower in the Sidlaws tonight too.

[fatshark]

Bees do build up quickly in the Paynes Nucs

Fatshark
They might like a bit more leg room in a full size hive :)



I know ...

I have an ongoing box shortage ... or more precisely roof shortage. I think the only unused one is on my bait hive in my garden ... and that was getting a lot of attention this evening, so I'm loath to dismantle it for a day or two. There were so many scouts about I nearly had to put a veil on to run a hairdryer over the last few supers (something else I've run out of) of foundation before taking them out to the apiary this evening. The smell of warm wax had them appearing in droves.

Another swarm would be welcome. We still have beginners waiting for bees and I have more queens coming on stream to requeen swarms or make up nucs. I tend to give the unwanted Q from the swarm away, although I'm aware I should probably sacrifice her to improve the quality of local queens. Perhaps I should only donate them to distant friends?! I think I've handed out three on this week.

So, the bait hive stays until Saturday. If the swarm isn't here by then I'll rehouse the Paynes nuc ...

PS The equipment shortage isn't so bad I've been reduced to using my two MB poly Nationals. These are tucked down an alley at the side of the house, unused and definitely unloved. I should switch one of them for the bait hive ... and then flog the swarm (if it appears) and the poly hive it's in ;-)

PPS Jon is about to remind me about Correx roofs ... rightly. I only have one substantial sheet left and was going to use it to make dividers for 'Twinstock' 2x3 frame nucs.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Fatshark
I sympathise with the equipment shortage
I'm ok for boxes but same as yourself its floors and roofs ,crown boards etc that are in short supply
I'm going to have to make some replacement stuff this year
Lots of old toot getting pressed into service :)

[fatshark]

Of course, the other shortage I have is a "space shortage for places to hide stuff from the wife during the quiet parts of the season" ... Even now in mid-season I have a stack of ekes, clearers, Horsley boards, travel screens, QEs, split floors, unventilated floors, crown boards, experimental high entrances, hideous springy zinc QEs which I refuse to use and am slowly turning into sides for frame feeders etc etc., reaching to shoulder height. Imagine what it's like when the supers are returned, the colonies get united releasing roofs and brood boxes and even some stands reappear.

What? These? I've had them for ages ...

Yes, I'll try and stack them a bit better ...

No, they don't do flat pack brood boxes ...

[prakel]

....hideous springy zinc QEs which I refuse to use and am slowly turning into sides for frame feeders etc

? I already feel the regret for asking this ....but do they not leak?

[Jon]

No finer sight than a correx roof.
Last for years. Might even paint them some time.

1664

[gavin]

Blends in perfectly on an allotment, behind a shed in a back garden, or beside a municipal recycling centre. Equally at home in an apiary for blind beekeepers. Useful for reducing the likelihood of equipment theft. There is almost no limit to their advantages.

[gavin]

Do you use correx for dummy boards? That might be my next venture in correx beekeeping after a few years of happy use of the correx sheets Thornes supply with their mesh floors.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Do you use correx for dummy boards?

I made quite a few dummy boards with correx this spring, but I do worry a bit that all those tiny tunnels might become disease traps. What do you think?
Kitta

[gavin]

In theory, yes. They certainly accumulate dirt (and sometimes grow green algae) inside them when used for floor inserts. However I'm sure that the bees can cope with most of the stuff likely to accumulate there, unless you have an outbreak of foulbrood. I have wondered about running a bead of silicone sealant along the cut edges the next time I use a piece of correx but I doubt that I'll ever be organised enough to have sealant, correx and time all in the same place.

[Jon]

Use tape as well.

1665

[fatshark]

I've built a fine set of Correx fat dummies for my Ben Harden setup. Only took about 1.6 miles of Duck tape to seal them up securely. They work a treat.

If you leave the ends unsealed they'll act as small hive beetle traps!

[gavin]

Nice to see two valued contributors of one mind and replying in unison ...

Duck tape is something I'm likely to carry around with me, so I've no excuse.

I seldom do anything unless I really enjoy doing it or am almost forced into it, and in this case it is the warping of these ply boards that was making me consider correx. Thin dummies rather than fat ones.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/entry.php?144-Doing-the-splits

Correx may be easier cut into exactly the right shape than any other material, and resist warping.

Incidently these three-in-a-box setups are in use this year with a vengence - I have three with bees in. It seems to me that the virgins in them are acting more like they do in large colonies (they took their time before venturing out) whereas the Paynes boxes (back on topic!) mated earlier. Perhaps the warmth of the other partitions and maybe the little gaps in the dividers made them bring in stores for a few weeks rather than get the next generation of bees on the go quickly.

[Black Comb]

I ventured into Aldi duck tape recently, apart from the price I was not impressed.
Currently using Mammoth tape which is good, but can't remember where I bought it.
I recently acquired a paynes nuc with bees, now transferred to full hive.
Seems flimsy compared to the MB stuff.

[fatshark]

Nice to see two valued contributors of one mind and replying in unison ...

Jon ... is Gavin suggesting we have half a mind each ?

[gavin]

Conjoined at the hippocampus. Maybe I shouldn't assume identical twin status until I have the chance to see how much cider or white wine FS can put away without even dropping his glass ...

Come to think of it, I've met both and didn't spot any family resemblance

[Jon]

It is either a case of great minds think alike or fools seldom differ.

[madasafish]

It is either a case of great minds think alike or fools seldom differ.

Got to agree with that :-)

[greengumbo]

Where do you guys get correx from other than "FOR SALE" signs ;)

Is it the type of thing B&Q or homebase stock ? I need to make up some big dummy boards and a varroa board.

Put MAQS on one of the poly hives on friday. Lots of white fume residue on the outside of the lovingly painted box. Farmer might not be happy with his brown wire fence either ;)

[Finno]

Wait for next election - at least then you can feel the politicians are good for something!

P F

[Mellifera Crofter]

Where do you guys get correx from other than "FOR SALE" signs ;)

Is it the type of thing B&Q or homebase stock ?

B&Q don't stock it, and they don't even use it for signs any more. I bought some from an online store (http://www.roberthornedirect.co.uk/home.php) (which is now down for maintenance). You have to buy a minimum amount, but I soon used up what I've bought.

I've also seen some for sale on eBay.
Kitta

[GRIZZLY]

We have a local sign maker who buys correx in bulk for his own use. I just toddle along to him and either get given his offcuts or purchase a piece for coppers if I need a larger size. He also has different thicknesses of board. Duck tape sticks it together very well and is waterproof as well. If you need to stick it together with an adhesive use "evo-stick" . You might need to roughen up the surfaces with coarse sandpaper to achieve satisfactory adhesion / bonding.